S5 E3 Kirk Dunn | The Knitting Pilgrim

In this episode, we meet Canadian textile artist, actor, and writer Kirk Dunn, whose extraordinary knitted works weave together themes of faith, social justice, and human connection. Best known for Stitched Glass - a 15-year knitted triptych inspired by stained-glass windows - Kirk uses yarn as a metaphor for healing across divides.

His one-man show The Knitting Pilgrim blends storytelling, projected imagery, and textile art to explore the shared tensions and hopes within Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Through his podcast The Knitting Pilgrim Talks and hands-on workshops in colour work and spiritual improvisation, Kirk invites dialogue, empathy, and participation.

This conversation touches on xenophobia, interfaith understanding, and the power of craft to build bridges. Stitched Glass premiered at the Aga Khan Museum, and his Patchwork Pride Project was showcased at Canada House in London during Pride Month 2025.

Recorded on 8 August 2025

Discover more:
Website: kirkdunn.com
Instagram: @kirkdunnknits
YouTube: The Knitting Pilgrim

Podcast details:
Podcast email: artiststalespodcast@gmail.com
Website: www.artiststales.net
Instagram: @artists_tales_podcast
Threads: @artists_tales_podcast

Transcript

Welcome to Artist Tales, a podcast that features and celebrates artists from different walks of life. I'm your host, Heather Martin, and in this episode we're unraveling the story of a man who knits, not just garments, but powerful conversation and cultural bridges. My guest is Kirk Dunn, a Canadian textile artist, actor and writer, better known as the Knitting Pilgrim.

For over 15 years, Kirk devoted himself to crafting stitched glass, a monumental triptych of knitted panels that mirror the grandeur of stained glass windows. These aren't just tapestries. They're bold reflections of faith, empathy, and the threads that bind us together through his one man show, the knitted Pilgrim Kirk fuses storytelling, visual projections, and textile art to explore the common ground and conflict between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Co-written with his wife Claire Dunn, and directed by Jennifer Tarver. The show has taken Kirk from Canada to Europe. His knitting carries weight, literally and metaphorically weighing over 90 pounds. His tapestries challenge xenophobia, antisemitism and Islamophobia and offer healing through compassion.

Whether he's hosting workshops, inviting audiences to knit during performances, or sharing interfaith dialogues on his podcast, the Knitting Pilgrim Talks, Kirk uses every stitch to mend fractured social fabric. Welcome, Kirk. Thank you, Heather. It's, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. Well, it's great to have you as a guest.

So, I know I've done the, the intro for you, but would you like to tell us a bit more about yourself and, and how you got into knitting? Okay. Well, well, I, I got into knitting, uh, I think because I was an actor actually. I, um, my, my first job outta theater school. I did this, um, a, a touring kids show. So we were driving around the country, the, not the country, but the province in a van doing a show about gender equity.

And the idea was that anything that girls can do, boys can do, and anything that boys can do, girls can do. So I was a cast as a 12-year-old boy, opposite, another actor was playing 12-year-old girl. And our, uh, relationship in the show was very much, you know, if you can do that, I can do that. Anything you can do, I can do better.

And that turned out to be our relationship, you know, in life. So we were, um, uh, up in Northern Ontario and we went into a, um, uh, a trading post. And I saw these beautiful Handknit sweaters there and I said, huh, I think I'm gonna buy one of those sweaters. And my friend looked at the, and said, buy the sweater.

I could knit more of those sweaters. And I thought, well. If you can knit that sweater, I can knit that sweater. And so that's what I, I did, um, I had, my girlfriend at the time had just knit me a sweater, so I figured the big surprise would be to knit her a sweater in return. And, um, I, I was also working as a security guard in a hospital and doing the midnight shift on the weekends.

And so I had lots of time to knit. And so I got really good at knitting sweaters. I knit my entire family, these big, huge thick Icelandic sweaters. And so the, the knitting stuck it. Um, it was something I loved to do. I had lots of time to do it as an actor and as a security guard. Lots of sitting around and waiting and, um, I just, uh, I loved the color of it.

I loved the, the creation of it. Just that, that magic of being able to take something that was basically a ball of string and. And turned it into a wearable piece of art. It just seemed like sorcery to me. I just, I loved that act of creation and so I, um, yeah, I picked up knitting and, uh, and stuck with it.

Yeah. And what was your reaction when you started knitting and, and particularly doing the, the sweaters? I mean, I, I know you mentioned the Scandinavian sweaters, but, you know, how did people react to that? Yeah. You know, some people thought it was a bit strange for, you know, what's, what's the guy doing knitting?

Uh, but actually I ironically it, the thing it did was it, um, it, it. It got me some really good attention too. I remember I was getting onto the subway with a fellow actor. Dean and I were, had done a show, and I got onto the subway and, and, and pulled up my knitting. He said, what are you doing pulling your knitting?

He said, it's gonna be fine. Don't worry about it. And just then the, the door open and a beautiful young woman walked in and she looked at me sitting there knitting. Oh my goodness, you're knitting. That's so fabulous. And she came right over and sat right down beside me, and we had this amazing conversation, you know, and this was a girl who was like, out of my league.

Like, there's no way I could ever, ever strike up a conversation with her. But the knitting did it for me. And so of course my, my acting bite looked to me after and said, okay, that's a, that's a pretty good idea. I see, I see. Anyway, because that was one of the things, you know. I, I found, uh, certainly like on on the whole, I was gonna say on the whole, but like 99% of the time every, uh, response I got for, you know, being a, uh, young man who knit was positive and, uh, people thought it was unusual and refreshing and a really great thing.

And so I was, uh, I was getting positive reinforcement for it. And more recently, I mean, you, you've touched on, certainly it's seen as unusual. It's seen that women tend to do it, but there is. A culture of men knitting. I mean, I've come across it a bit more recently, you know, particularly on things like Instagram and other social media platforms.

And it, it's, as you say, it's really refreshing, you know, to see it kind of challenging those stereotypes. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the, I mean the, the, the pendulum of history swings back and forth and back and forth and, you know, back in, in medieval times there, there were knitting guilds that were male only.

Like you had to be a man to knit. And so there was a time in, uh, in, in society when it was a, a male thing. Uh, uh, and, and then it's also an incredibly, uh, functional and, um, what's the word? Individualistic or, or self disciplined. And, and you, you're basically taking care of your yourself by knitting it.

Like you can, you know. Sailors in the Second World War would knit their own sweaters, uh, and Fisher men would repair their own knitted pieces. You know, they, because you, you basically, it was a, it was a life skill. You're out on the water, you need to stay warm. You know, a wool sweater is the way to do it.

You. Something happens to your wool sweater, what are you gonna do? You're gonna fix it, you're gonna, or you need one. So is anybody else around to knit it for you? No. So you knit it yourself. So, you know, it's, it's very much a, um, uh, something like that too. And again, I think it's that, that act of, of creation.

And I think too that, um, you know, I'm, I'm hoping that our society is, is progressing a little bit and I think that, you know, certainly for, for many years it was seen as women's work and partly because not, you know, women showed more what care, I guess, and, and their, their. Place in the family was to take care of others and to clothe people and to, and to care for and comfort people.

And, and knitting was a great way to, to do that because you make something for someone in your family or someone you love or care about, and they have this warm. Comfortable, comforting article of clothing that's got a real history to it and that's got some sentimental value to it. And that's, that's a beautiful thing.

And I think now there is much more, uh, permission and understanding, uh, for men to do that as well. Like we care. We can care for people. We can do the same things. We can craft things with our hands. It is handy work. It is a craft and anybody can do it. So, um, I think it's becoming much more acceptable and, um, much more celebrated, I think for, for everyone to do it for men, women, kids, adults, anybody.

And just moving on to some of the projects you've done when I was kind of finding out a bit more about you, it's, it's really quite fascinating what you've been up to, to be fair. So I'll start off, as I've mentioned in the introduction about Stitch Glass and that triptych. So would you like to tell us a bit more about that project?

Yeah, so I. I, I had begun designing my own sweaters and things and was really enjoying, you know, the knitting and wanted to take things to the, to the next level. And I was told by the, uh, uh, the executive director of the Textile Museum of Canada that the way to do that was to be, was to knit an installation, an actual piece of art as opposed to a, a piece of, of clothing or a garment.

And so I was looking for just something to, to knit. And this was just after nine 11. And I, uh, my history, my personal history is that I am a pk, I'm a preacher's kid and I grew up as a son of a Presbyterian minister here in, in Canada. And, um, and so I, I grew up in the church and I actually had a, a very positive experience in the church, and I, I remember being.

Aware very early on as a child that a lot of people did not have a positive experience in the church. And I couldn't, I didn't know why that was because my, my father's theology was very inclusive and very understanding and open and about love and acceptance and caring and doing the right thing and making the world a better place.

And, you know, there, there wasn't, I, I didn't, was really seeing a downside to it. And it wasn't until, you know, I. As I grew, I, I noticed that other people, well had, had some issues with their, with their, his history with the church, and in fact, with all, I think religions, you know, they're all imperfect because, well, they're all based on, on people and we, people are very, very imperfect.

And so anything we touch, we kind of screw up and it's, it's what we. So I was looking at what had happened after nine 11, and I was looking at this relationship between the Judaism, uh, Christianity and Islam, and wondering why it was that these three faiths, they're all based on the same thing basically.

They all come from Abraham, all Abrahamic faiths, and they're all pretty much saying the same thing. They, they really are. And if. If you actually, you know, speak to the people at the highest level, the, you know, the, the ministers and the priests and the scholars and the rabbis and the imams at the highest level, they would all really admit like, yeah, we're all saying the same thing.

They would say that, and yet I wondered why was it that they're having such hard time getting along? Like, what did that happen? How did that happen? What's the, the past history there and, and, and where's the common ground and how can we. Celebrate and remember the common ground and use that to, you know, as a reminder to move forward.

And in, in looking at these three faiths, I, I discovered of course, that there was much more common ground than there was, you know, things that set them apart. And so that's what I was, I, I went, tried to capture in those. Those tapestries. And the thing was, I didn't, I told, I told the Arts council, uh, that when I got the grant, I said, this is gonna take me about 10 months.

But of course it, it ended up taking me 15 years and, um. A lot of things changed over that time and I di I didn't know what I was doing when I was, I, I knew a little bit about Christianity of course, 'cause I grew up in the church, but I didn't know anything really about, uh, Judaism and next to nothing about Islam.

And so finding out about those faith and, and studying them and I, and, and. And asking about them and looking into them, and I, I just made, I made lots of mistakes. I, I made a fool myself a number of times, and I just had this up and down rollercoaster ride of trying to get these tapestries finished. And at the end, because it had taken me 15 years, I only, that's all I had.

And as an artist, you, you. You don't have any, any reputation if you've only got one project and you haven't had any exhibitions, you haven't established a name for yourself, you haven't worked with the gallery. Uh, so that's the the place I found myself in. And, um, my wife Claire and I decided to go to the problem for the solution.

And the problem was that, you know, this is the only thing I had. And so I said, okay, well if it's the only thing I had, then we will, let's write a one person show about it. And that's the way we'll get it out there by telling the story. And I was, I was a bit nervous about that because, uh, you know, because it was my story.

I didn't think it, I didn't think it was very interesting. I'd spent 15 years really close to it, and I thought it was a. A disaster as opposed to anything to really celebrate. But, you know, I listened to the people around me mostly, and, and we, we created this show and it turned out to be a, a huge hit. And it actually speaks to people on, on so many levels, like.

While it's true that nobody else has ever knit three full-sized tapestries that look like stain glass windows, everybody has got some experience of biting off more than they can chew. And that artistic the journey of an artist of, of coming with a great idea and trying it and failing and being a disaster, and then.

You know, trying again and getting it closer, and then they fail again. And then you try and, and eventually that you achieve success. And, and this thing that, you know, for a while there looked like it was a huge albatross around your neck and was the worst thing, the worst idea you anyway ever have turns into a, a huge, um, a victory and a real triumph.

And, uh, so everybody who saw, who has seen the show really identifies with it on, on that level. So that's been good. So it sounds like it's really resonated. You know, those themes that you've just, you've just touched on have really resonated with people. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the other thing too is that just thematically talking about the relationship between these three faiths, I remember thinking at one point in the process, like, oh man, it's taking me so long.

Nobody's gonna care. They'd be like, they're gonna, everything's gonna get all fixed up between them and nobody. There's, there's gonna be no conflict and it's just, it's not gonna be in the news or in the public psych guide at all, and nobody. It's just not gonna matter. Then of course you fast forward to, to today and it, it does, it matters very much and it is, uh, really, uh, prominently in the news and we're talking about it all the time.

And so there is that element and, and that aspect of the show as well is, is that idea of looking at these three faiths, the Abrahamic faiths and seeing that in fact they are incredibly similar and they're all saying the same thing. And how can we. Build on that. How can we use those things to knit us together as opposed to, you know, pull and tear us apart.

So it sounds like it's recognizing the conflict, but you know, also raising or also reflecting on the common ground because I think it's certainly a lot of the dialogue I'm hearing, you know, whether it's the, the Abrahamic face or whatever the conflict is, it's very easy to other Yes. The other person and not see the humanity, the common commonness between the other.

Person or the other people in yourself. Yeah. AB absolutely that, that idea of, uh, fear of the other, uh, that's, that's where the, the problem is. We fear is the key. Most of our problems today are be, are because of fear. We, we do things because we're afraid and we turn people into the other because we don't know them.

And so we fear them and, and we do that. They're not doing it. You know, if we put more effort, put some effort into getting to know people and, and looking for those, those, those connections we have, I think what we'll find is that we are much more similar than we are different. And, and I think that's the secret to, to getting along and, and to, to moving forward.

And I think it's, in today's society, it's. Well, it, it's a bit disheartening. Uh, I think is, is a very gentle way to put it, uh, about how, how much fear there is in the world and, uh, the rise of, uh, othering and antisemitism and, uh, Islamophobia and. You know, um, anti-trans and, and, uh, homophobia and all these things are just, are, seem to be, um, having their flames fanned when, you know, it's, it, it's just, uh, depressing that we're going in the wrong direction.

And, you know, the irony is that, that those approaches are making everything worse. And in fact, what we need to do is. Is not push people away, but to bring them closer and to find out more about them and to realize that, you know, they are just like us and what can we do and how can we help and how can we solve these problems as opposed to, you know, how do we shut doors and push people away And uh, and, you know, turn people into the other, which is incredibly destructive.

Which makes me think, just reflecting on what you're saying, that the Stitch Glass Triptych and the, the show that you talked about, which I believe you're talking about, the Knitted Pilgrim show, although it's kind of, you know, had a 15 year journey mm-hmm. In some ways is still very timely, is still very, very relevant.

Today as perhaps it was 15, 20 years ago. Yes. Yeah. AB absolutely. And, and I think that's what's, uh, so, so interesting about it. It's actually, it's a really challenging show to describe to people because they don't, you know, they think what the knitting pilgrim, like, what is that about? How do these three faiths and knitting about them and talking about God and religion, how does that, uh, apply to me at all, you know?

And I've had people say to me, I'm not, I, I don't wanna see that show. I don't know. I, I think, I think your show, no, I, I don't wanna see it. And then they have seen it and, and, uh, and sometimes they use some very strong words about it. They, we, you know, they're not, not polite. And then after they see the show, they, they.

I say, wow, that was fantastic. That was not at all what I thought it was gonna be. It was great. I didn't want it to end. I, I loved it. It was so, it, it spoke right to me. It was so interesting and so important. Everybody should see this show. So, you know, it's got that the, a very universal appeal and I think it is about the human condition.

It, um, it's about all of us and how we think, and how we feel and how we get along. And it is, yeah, it's, it's applicable to everyone. All the time. And in the show, because I did in the introduction mention that, you know, people kind of knit in shows and that sort of thing. So is that part of the experience of the knitted pilgrim kind of theater?

Yeah, I, I, yeah, absolutely. Uh, and actually one of the things that I think is so great about knitting and craft is that it is. It's, anybody can do it. And like all, all complicated things, it's really not very complicated. It's, uh, it, it comes down to two stitches. Knitting is just two stitches. It's a knit stitch and a pearl stitch.

And one is just the inverse of the other, right? A like a, a pearl stitch. It's just a, a knit stitch from the other side, from you, you in the other direction. That's all, all it is. But with those two stitches, with this binary system, you can do just amazing things just by the different ways you can. Combine them.

It's, you know, it's like binary mathematics. Like, you know, if you wanna program a computer, you use a zero and a one, and that's it. That's all computer programming is, is a zero and a one. Yet you can do incredible things. So I think that's, that's part of. How accessible a knitting is that you can do. You have these very simple techniques and then you can have a amazing results and anybody can learn how to do it.

In fact, in the knitting pilgrim, we actually teach people how to knit. We do a, a knitting workshop and we have balls of yarn and needles there for people to pick up and, and use to pack to their seats, and they can. They can either, they can work on their own knitting if they brought their own knitting project or if that's too complicated, you know, takes too much, um, effort.

They wanna watch the show easily. They can just, you know, knit a quick swatch back and forth, back and forth as they watch the show. And then they can leave that, that we invite them to leave that with us, and then we will turn it into something afterwards that they can use. So that's a, that's a possibility, um, for them too.

And it's, it, it is in some ways. Uh, encouraging the audience to work together and to work with me to create something that wasn't there before. Something that is beautiful and has a function and. Symbolism that, you know, that we can, uh, that, that, that we can all see something tangible. Mm-hmm. And in fact, you know, and I'll mention, uh, this, another project that I did recently was not this of the, the Patchwork Pride project.

It was a similar thing in that, um, invited people to just knit a six inch square. A colorful six inch square, a very simple pattern, and to send it into me. And then I would, uh, I would sew them all together into a, a big, uh, to a pride flag. And the reason I'd done this is I'd, I'd previously crocheted a, a huge rainbow tree sweater or a tree wrap, which was, they called yarn bombing.

And it was enormous. It was about to, it, it covered the maple tree in the front yard of our church, and it is maple tree's over a hundred years old. And so it's like 12 feet into circumference. And so I had this enormous, uh, 12 feet high rainbow wrap around the, the tree. And we had it up there for pride month, I think in 2023.

And, uh, the, the neighborhood loved it, and people would come and they'd take pictures of themselves with it, and it was, it was great. Then one day I, I got some news that someone had torn it down, which was too bad, and, and, and ripped it all up and, and tearing it off the tree. So that was disappointing, but I, I took that, picked up the, the piece, and I fixed it over the next, you know, uh, winter and, and spring.

And then we put it back up again. The, the following year, 2024. But this time it lasted less than 24 hours before someone toed out again. And this time they stole it. So I, I, and, and actually I had a, a couple that happened to another, uh, similar, uh, but smaller rainbow flag in another, uh, park in, in Toronto too.

So I was very disappointed by that. And, and, well, actually, my wife was telling me I was, I was enraged that that would, she would say, I was just, I was so annoyed. I didn't know what to do about it. And I, and I, I make, make this joke that, um, you know, it, it was kinda like, you know, my response was sort of like what Bugs Bunny used to say in the Looney Tunes commercial.

Looney Tunes cartoons. When, you know, someone would, uh, you know, annoy him, he'd say, of course, you know. Dis means war, and then he'd come back and, you know, would completely destroy them. So that was sort of the way I, I felt about this. I was, I just wanted to, you know, fight. I wanted to cover everything in rainbow knitting and, and stuff.

But, um, we took some time to think about it and, and thought, well, that's not really a great response. And I didn't really know what to do, you know, that I could do as a response. And so I put the word out to, uh, knitting community online and anybody I knew and, and invited them to participate and say, Hey, why don't you send me, if you could send me this little square, uh, we'll put it, we'll put it together into a rainbow flag that we'll hang from somewhere, you know, somewhere in the church.

And I thought I'd get like a couple hundred of these things. Lemme make a little flag. But it turned out over a period of, you know, two or three months, we got O over a thousand. We had over a thousand squares come in. The flag that I thought was gonna be very small, it turned out to be about 12 and a half feet wide by 22 and a half feet long, I think was enormous.

And we finally, we put it all together and we had to get, um, you know, we had to have a piecing party once and Sunday. We got people come in to help sew it together and we had so many, so many squares. They couldn't do it all at once. And so over the next week, a bunch of people, I think a, a core group of about 10 of us, like worked morning, noon, and night to sew the thing together and to put a backing on it and to figure out a way to, to, to mount it.

And we mounted it on the, the Spire or the, the Bell Tower of Morningside, Hyde Park pastor in church in Toronto. And it was gorgeous. And, you know, and looking back at that, that was such a. A huge success because it, it wasn't just me. It, it was an entire community that our priest did. It was a group. Effort of community effort that no one person could have done by themselves.

And we used people of all different ages and skill levels and uh, you know, we had to somebody to figure out how the engineering, about how to get it up there and how to hang it properly and how to sew it onto this, this backing and what to use as the backing. There was somebody who, who'd made kites before, so she said, well, what about rip stop nylon?

They made kites. Great idea. Let's, you know, source that and put that up. And so this this incredible group effort. And when we stood back and looked at it, I mean, it was. It was so meaningful because, you know, whoever, whoever tore that, that original yarn bomb down off of the tree, I mean, they, they were, it was kind of low.

They, they, they went low. Whereas we, it encouraged us to go high in a number of ways. One was just elevation. The, the, the piece we finished was so high up, no one could touch it. So that was one thing, but also it, we took the moral, uh, high ground and we got together and created something big and beautiful and community oriented.

Whoever that vandal was, who tore it off the tree, was trying to, was trying to, you know, stop that or crush that or say something terrible about the L-G-B-T-Q community and yet we came together and said something beautiful. And so the. You know, the final result was exactly the opposite of what that, that act of vandalism, uh, was trying to accomplish.

And that, I think was probably the thing I'm, I'm proudest of. So instead of pulling you down, it kind of roses you up really. You kind of react to saying, no, actually we're gonna rise higher. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And is that piece of work, so I, the, the reason why I came across you or how I came across you. Was there was that piece of work, the For Pride in London, England?

Yes. On Canada House, which is Canadian High Commission in London. Yes. And that's how I came across you because the Canadian High Commission kind of posted something about it. So is is that the same piece of work that you created? That is, that is the very same piece of work and uh, yeah, we, we were very fortunate and so we, I think we installed it in, in, in Toronto in June of 2025.

And then we had to take it down at the end of the season. Then we were in, um, London, Claire and I were working on a theater tour actually for of the Knitting Pilgrim. And we were speaking to, uh, one of the, the people at, at the, the high commission and they were talking about, and we were actually at Canada Day and they said, you know, we also have Pride Day, right afterwards and, or just before I think.

And, um, we said, well, you know, we've got something you could use for Pride Day. And they were, they just loved the idea. So it was, uh, it was great. Yeah. So it sounds like it was, you were in the right place at the right time to, to get that to happen. Yeah, absolutely. Allison Gooding was the, the trade commissioner who, um, who helped us with that.

And so, yeah. It was, uh, fantastic. She was a, a huge champion and, uh, if it weren't for her, we never would've, um, had that, uh, project installed. And did you get much public reaction or did you get much feedback from the public in when that was installed? I think we, we got, um, a lot of positive, uh, actually the, and the, so what happened was we, we put it up and then of course, you know, the social media stuff went out and, and Canada House put something out and the, on Instagram and there were a bunch of, you know, people feeding back to it right away.

It was fantastic. And third down was Three Hearts, and it, they came from Dame Judy Dench. So we thought, okay, we have arrived. Look what we did. So that was nice. Yeah. You've made it. You've made it. I've made it. Yeah, we made it. I also want to touch on your podcast. The Knitting m talks. Great. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Well, the, so the thing that, um, I did with those, uh, three stained glass windows, it was, I incorporated imagery in. Right. I guess e each window was made primarily of, uh, the, the, uh, the main symbol of that particular faith. So for Judaism, there was the star of David and for Christianity, the cross. And then in Islam there was the, the star and the crescent.

And then inside those, those symbols, I placed positive images of the faiths. And then outside those symbols, I, I place the images a little more challenging and that sometimes referred to things that, that. That the faith had done in the past that, you know, they were trying to live down or, or, or things where they've, they've knocked heads together or they're having trouble with each other, things like that.

So, like, for example, in the, in the Christian, uh, window, there's, you know, off to the side and outside the cross there's a, an image of a star of David in behind some barbed wire. And that was referencing the, the poor performance of the Christian Church during the Holocaust because there the. Uh, the Catholic church, particularly in France, port of the Nazis, and, you know, it was, that's brought us un-Christian as you can possibly be.

So things, things like that, that, and then also, but there, there's so much to choose from as far as positive things which go and about peace and, and caring for each other and, um. And all those, those kinds of things. But I didn't really have time to address many of those images in the show. The Knitting Pilgrim.

And people after the show would come up and see these huge, um, pieces of work and they'd say, wow, I'd love to know what all these images mean. And I, I just didn't have enough time to tell them right then and there. So we decided to create a podcast where I would take some time and speak to. Scholar or a minister or a rabbi or a mom about one particular section and the images that were there and, and the kind of the question I was asking with those images or the things or the theme I was exploring.

So that's what I'd been getting Pilgrim talks is, is these a series of episodes where we're trying to, um, deal with each individual section of. Of the, um, of the tapestries and discuss, uh, the imagery that is Yeah. Is, is brought to light on those tapestries. So it sounds like really nice accompaniment to the theater production as well, so it's kind of allows you to explore things in a bit more detail.

Yeah. Ab absolutely. The thing that's good about the, uh, the podcast is I'm not the one who's seeing them. You know, I'm, I'm basically asking the questions and then, and then we're hearing from, uh, somebody who, uh, has much more. Experience and, um, knowledge that I can talk about, you know, uh, what's out there and, and the actual facts about things and the difference between what people think and what it was actually these faiths are actually saying and their histories together and you know what they mean, and, and.

Where they, where these ideas come from. So for, for example, in Judaism, uh, there's this idea that women are, are not allowed to do, uh, certain things like wearing a prayer shawl or blowing a shahar, which is a, a rams horn that's blowing on certain holidays or wearing to fill in, which are small pieces of the Torah that are attached to the wearer's arms with straps, and they're used for praying and all these things.

I was under the impression that women weren't allowed to do these things. And in, in fact, when you look at Judaism and go right back to the beginning, it it, it's actually saying, no women are actually excused from doing this. They don't, they, they do not have to do them. They're not obligated to do them because they are doing, usually doing or sometimes doing, often doing a much more important things, which is, you know, caring for a family, raising a child, you know, all those sorts of things.

So they are not obligated to take time away from that. Imp more important work. To do these other things, whereas men who are not obligated to do those things in particular necessarily, or who, who, you know, are not giving birth to anyone or that, that kind of thing, they are expected to fulfill these, these prayer functions.

So it's not a, a thing that women aren't allowed to do 'em, it's just that they were excused from doing them. And could women do them? Yeah, absolutely they could. So it's these, these kind of misunderstandings that we have of, of the, of the faith that I think are. Are, um, are really important. I'm now coming to my final question, but I'm just reflecting on kind of what we've talked about and, you know, the projects you've been involved with are some, you know, quite frankly, big, you know, like the stitch Glass, the, the theater production, your podcast, and even, you know, the, the pride flag that, you know, turned out to be a very community participatory thing.

Those are fairly big things and dealing with subjects that are timely, and I think they've been timely for quite a few decades, to be fair. And going forward, what's next? Because it just feels like you, you've achieved so much already, but it also sounds like there's potential for a lot more as well. Wow.

Well that's a, yeah, that's a great question. One of the things we're doing, really, I'm the middle of doing right now is that my wife Claire and I have written another play, and it's based on some of the research that we found in researching the, the Knitting Pilgrim. And that was that, you know, in the Second World War, apparently there were women who, um.

And in Europe who spied on the Nazis for resistance and they, and they knit code into socks and they would spy on the Nazi troop movements and knit this information into code and into a socket and you know, send it to the resistance. And we thought, wow, that's a really cool thing using knitting as a spy craft.

So let. Let's write a show about that. And, and, and we did, and we, we looked for, we're trying to find some original source material. Like we're trying to find some knitted items that had code knitted into them, that, that were, you know, uh, passed around. We couldn't actually find anything, so we're not sure if it, it, it actually happened.

But it was such a great idea that we created a, a character who worked for the, for Winston Churchill's spy agency, the special operations executive. And she is a middle aged woman who, um, knits. And so she's. Completely invisible, which makes her a, a great spy. Like no one would think this woman would be a spy.

She's just sitting around knitting. And yet she could, you know, she had incredible powers of deduction and she would notice things. And so she made an excellent spy and that's what we um, we were show about that cult spy craft. And we are now in the middle of producing that. To add to that, the, this character is also a hidden Jew, so there's that and that additional jeopardy for her to be in occupied France, spying on the Nazis as a hidden Jew working for the English.

So, um, that show is gonna go up in this fall in here in Canada, in, uh, in October, November. And we're really looking forward to that. And I've also, uh, just been, uh, approached by the, uh, the folks at, at the, I think it's called the Connections, which is. A, a group out of St. Martin in the fields in London, off Square.

They saw the, um, the patchwork pride 'cause it was right across the square from them. And I went by and did, uh, and did a little workshop with them when I was in town. And they have invited me to participate in, um, a, uh, a project they are starting, um, which is called the Threads of Remembrance, uh, I think is what it's being called at the moment.

And it's about remembering all the people, all the homeless people who have died while being homeless in, in the uk. And I think there's, uh, just an incredible number of people. It's like 1400, 4,000, something like that. Anyway, it's um, a shocking number. And they would like to create a, uh. Memorial blanket.

And so they want to knit a square for every person who has, has died while homeless in the uk. And, um, uh, we've been talking about that and they've asked some advice and I'm happy to help with that. I'm hoping to get over there at one point to help piece it together and, and get it up and, and help with that.

So that's another thing I, I think that, um. I'm looking forward to doing. And that's a project that really excites me because again, it's a community project. It's, uh, addressing a huge societal issue. Uh, something that, you know, it should not be happening is happening and we need to come together to fix.

So find that very exciting. Yeah. And that sounds like a really, really interesting project. And sadly, homelessness. Poverty is unfortunate at the moment, increasing across the world. It's not just the UK thing, [00:37:00] but yeah, it's the connection at St. Martin in the fields, and it's a charity in London that it's an out, it does outreach to the homeless and vulnerable people in London.

So, yeah, no, I've, I, I'm, I've heard of it and I think a lot of Londoners are familiar with it, so. Sounds like a really great project to support what they're doing. Great. Good. Yes. Yeah, I'm, I'm, we're, we're pretty, uh, pretty excited by the whole thing. Well, great. It's been lovely speaking with you, and I've, I've found your story really quite interesting and fascinating to be fair.

So thanks for being a guest. Well, thank you so much for having me, Heather. I really appreciate your taking the time, uh, and I am honored to be, um, noticed and on your show and, uh, yeah. I thank you for making the effort to. Get these artists stories out there because I, I, I think art is incredibly important.

It's, it's actually something that, uh, we all aspire to and something that, that lifts our lives and that, um, we all need. And so thank you for doing, uh, such a tremendous job in helping us discover it and honored. Thank you. And, and I agree with you. [00:38:00] I think art is fundamental to humanity, and it's great to have, I have to say it's great speaking with the artists that I, I speak with.

Thanks for tuning into my conversation with Kirk. I hope he enjoyed hearing about his vibrant storytelling through yarn and his reflections on empathy, faith and social justice left you as inspired as I was. If this episode sparks something in you, be sure to check out Kirk's website and social media handle and the links here in the show notes.

And if you're enjoying artist Tales, help us keep the momentum going by sharing the podcast with your friends and fellow creatives. In the next episode, I'm speaking with Geoff Titley, a digital media artist and photographer who blends traditional photographic techniques with cutting edge digital processes.

Jeff's art explores the technological lens through which we view the natural world, is going to be a fascinating dive into how digital tools reshape visual storytelling.