S4, E10 Holly Revell

Holly Revell is a London-based artist and photographer who specialises in LGBTQ+ performance, portraits and projects. They published 'People like us' photobook in December 2024 which explores trans, non-binary and gender non-conforming (GNC) identities and experience from the assigned female at birth (AFAB) perspectives. The episode was recorded on the 28 November 2024.

Website: www.hollyrevell.co.uk
Instagram: @hollyrevellphotography

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Podcast email: artiststalespodcast@gmail.com
Website: www.artiststales.net
Instagram: @artists_tales_podcast
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Welcome to Artist Tales, a podcast that features and celebrates artists from different walks of life. I'm your host, Heather Martin, and in this episode I'm speaking with Holly Revell, a London based artist and photographer specializing in queer performance, portraits, and projects. Welcome, Holly. Hi. It's really good to have you on the podcast.

So to start off, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and how you got into photography? Uh, yeah, that's  where to start. It's a long story, but I'll try and keep it brief. So, a bit unconventional, but hey, isn't that lots of people's stories. I always wanted to go to art school, not really knowing what that is.

was, but was not allowed to, left school at 16. And I always say there was like a decade in the wilderness, leaving school at 16, and then another decade in the wilderness, where after I finished my degree in fine art, which I eventually found my way to, in my mid twenties. So yeah, so working class background and wasn't really aware of that when I was at university.

I was quite blissfully unaware, but yeah, that's the thing.  But so yeah, I studied fine art. I always, I've always been a photographer or a documenter.  So back in the nineties, when sort of in a friendship group. I'd always be the person with the camera, cause there'd only be one person with a camera. So I'd always be taking pictures and documenting nights out.

Uh, I hung around a lot with bands back then. It was kind of a groupie in the nineties, fag hag in the noughties, and, uh, and then found my people in a sort of queerer community since, um,  but, so I've always sort of hung around with performers, I suppose, and, and photographed them. But when I was doing that, You know, sort of in the nineties, just like socially, it was, it was literally, cause I couldn't believe that I was like doing cool stuff.

Cause I was not a cool kid at school. And yeah, all of a sudden, like, yeah, like I say, I was hanging around with bands and, um, having really cool nights out in my mind they were anyway. So yeah, and then I, studying fine art, kind of, photography was, you know, the lowest of the low, and so, I never considered photography as an art, and never wanted to be a photographer.

I wanted to be an artist, whatever that entailed. I mean, I did lots of installation stuff, very theoretical stuff, sort of like, interventions and things like that. But I also did lots of stuff with photography, uh, sort of theoretical stuff and using photography. So it's always been there. And then, and it wasn't really until a decade after, well, it took me a decade to figure out how to do anything.

I just didn't learn how to be an artist at art school, uh, messed around with stuff,  um, and had a good time. So you left art school and it sounded like it took you a while to kind of figure out your path as an artist. Yeah, definitely. So yeah, I moved to London and I spent, so that first decade living in London straight after art school, I was working in a gay bar and basically spending all my time with gay men on the gay male scene and like still partying very hard and clubbing and that.

And then I'd say like, sort of, this is important, I guess, or interesting because that was what informed the first sort of, what I'd say is the first. like real sort of work that I did, which was a piece called Dark Room. And it was very much based on the theory of photography and, you know, the language of the dark room and then also the language of sort of gay male clubs and dark rooms.

And I wanted to do something with photography, but I didn't want to generate more photography. I didn't want to take loads of pictures. I felt that the world is. I mean, I still feel like this, but I have now, I am now adding a lot more to it. But at the time I was, that's not what I was interested in. I was interested in using photography to sort of make things happen.

I was like really into happenings and live stuff and making photography a live thing. So anyway, I created these installations on club nights and sort of all sorts of different kinds of parties, sometimes in galleries. And it very depended on the venue as to how they would go. But they were in the dark, the camera was set up on a tripod on a bulb setting, so sort of locked open.

And I'd do these really, really long exposure images in the dark, just lighting what I wanted to light. And I guess because of the darkness, they just, Because everyone just took their clothes off  and depending on, you know, and things could get very hot  or, you know, people just like wanting, they'd always wanted to do a nude and then all of a sudden they had this opportunity at a private view  and like, so, so they just did it.

So yes. And I was really into this idea of yeah. Doing stuff that liberated, like, yeah. Liberating people. I suppose that came from people saying that it was liberating doing it though. It's all a process.  And I created these spaces where anyone was allowed in, unlike the dark rooms, the tight rooms. Found myself dumped outside of at the end of a night out. 

Anything could happen.  And it did. And yeah, that was around 2009 I was doing those. And that,  at that time, there was this sort of queer nightlife was sort of really interesting. There were these kind of little, I suppose just like, really weird pop up performances  here and there. kind of, not quite cabaret, just stuff happening on the floor and, and you were sort of meeting these, like, performance artists and that and it, we were all sort of all in it together a bit.

And doing my stuff on the same night, on these kinds of nights, I then started to meet some of the, like, sort of, really big people. sort of performance artists, queer performance artists in London and started working with them and I had no desire to photograph them or their work still, even though they were like really amazing and brilliant, but I still sort of wanted to do more what I considered arty stuff, I suppose.

But anyway, I then was getting employed to photograph these people's shows. And so I did it because it was like, yay, great, uh, nice way to sort of get to know them better. It was my sort of incentive initially. It certainly wasn't a money thing. And, uh, yeah, I ended up working with the greatest performance artists of like, of the queer underground and haven't looked back.

So then I developed a freelance practice as well as my art practice. And so yeah, my freelance is sort of documenting queer performance and artists predominantly and sort of queer events and things. And then my practice has sort of evolved into a lot of portraiture and body work, all to do sort of all around queer identities and that.

So there's lots of crossover and somehow I've managed to get a really nice balance of freelance work and my own work. I do a bit of teaching as well.  It's all really nicely balanced, but it's taken me a while to get here.  I think that can take some time to develop and it sounds like you've been kind of exploring quite a lot as well.

And it's, I do find it really interesting and you know, perhaps we can, you know, talk about it more, kind of the queer culture you're photographing, because, you know, in many ways that is, you know, it's not necessarily mainstream, and performance art in itself is not necessarily mainstream. And it sort of sounds like you kind of stumbled upon it, or it's not something initially actively sought out, but you kind of found a home there.

I don't want to say by accident, but it's kind of that happy instance, if you know what I mean. I know, absolutely. And yeah, I really found my people. Yeah. You know, I found the, the weirdos, the people that I fitted in with and, but they, and they, you know, I felt, yeah, they, Sort of, you know, it was more of an equal kind of relationship than say when I was just hanging around with gay men and going to gay clubs.

Although I was again, blissfully unaware at the time of the, the power dynamics or whatever, I was quite happy. But, um,  and in terms of doing anything artistically and creatively, they're the people that gave me a platform, the performance artists. And also like a bit, even though it  world but there was a bit of crossover into like sort of sex parties and things and so the erotic awards which was with Tuppy Owens and a performer called Mouse and that there's a there's like a bit of a crossover between live art and performance art and then those sort of parties and things.

And they were the very first people to give me a platform to try things out and, um, yeah, so to the students I work with, I'm like, you know, photography is, can really help you find your people. And a voice as well from the sound of it. Mmm, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think I used to, Always, like, I,  I, I'd never admit to, like, the camera being a social tool in the past.

I don't know, I thought that was too embarrassing, but I really think it has been my whole life. You know, from making myself useful to bands in the 90s and that, you know, having something to do, a role. Uh, sort of getting, you know, that got me in, not that that was why I did it initially, but it was, yeah, it's always, you know, I've always just done things because I want to do them and always, like, I've always sort of, like, gone out on my own and, like, pushed myself into the worlds that I want to be in, but it's the camera that's helped push me forward in those worlds and get to know those people and that's, yeah, still to this day. 

It sounds to me like it was a way to engage with people. Do you think that's the case? Yeah, I think it makes it easier, I guess. I mean, I was definitely, I always have been sort of documenting for myself. I've always written diaries and things as well. So I think that, that came first, but, It definitely sort of helps, I don't know, like, yeah, I do like having something to do and I guess something to, something useful, something to offer maybe, I don't know, I like to be part, involved and be part of it.

I mean, when I, my first love when I was at school was drama and acting, I actually wanted to be a performer, but. that got axed and there was no, you know, no opportunities or, you know, I didn't, you know, I just forgot about that. And then art was the way, but I didn't know photography was art until a long time later. 

And it sounds like your view of photography has changed. So it sounds like now it's kind of, you see it as art. How long did that journey last? You know, like, is, is it fairly recent realization or is it, you know, something that just kind of evolved over time? Yeah, that's definitely evolved since I started freelancing.

So when I started documenting other people's work, I still, I was enjoying it, but I didn't see it as art or a sort of great  It was really fun. And yeah, it was great. Yeah. It was a good thing to do, but I definitely didn't see it as art and there was a real separation, but I think working with, so particularly sort of Scotty, who's like one of the big performers that I was working with really showed me the, like opened up my eyes to sort of the creative world of documentation.

And then I started to see it as an art. And I guess the more I was doing it, I was like, Oh, I'm building quite an archive here. I'm working with all these like brilliant, amazing performers getting all these like really, yeah, fantastic images. And I mean, now I've got such a massive archive of people and performance, like a decade of that is at Bishopsgate  Institute.

And I always say that'll be, My, sort of, the last thing I do will be the most gigantic ever coffee table book of all the performance and it's, I've definitely captured in, sort of, from about the late noughties  to like that decade to, I guess, just, yeah, to the pandemic. That period, that was a specific moment in queer sort of culture and nightlife, and it's, you know, it's ever evolving, and I'm very proud to have captured that in London, and that's definitely art as well. 

And to me, it sounds like it's documenting or documentary type of photography, but in a very artistic way. And it really sounds like, you know, the documenting yourself, documenting others, documenting queer culture seems really important to you. And to me, that kind of drives with me, like it's, I kind of am finding probably much more, until you've mentioned it, much more in a subconscious level of kind of documenting life around me. 

Yeah, I think like, so it started when I was working with Scotty and they were like really savvy about having their work documented. And I, yeah, I became like their personal photographer and I was a massive fan and, you know, totally in awe and in love with this person. And they certainly, you know, we had a great friendship developed out of that, but it was very much.

a friendship of a performer and their photographer kind of thing. And I loved it.  So, and I'd say, yeah, less artists were, it was like, I was always like, Oh, the liveness is the most important thing and we shouldn't ruin it by taking loads of pictures. And so another artist that I've worked extremely close with for many, many, many years, and again, was one of the first people to give me a platform is David Hoyle, who I also made a book with six, seven years ago.

And he is like the godfather of avant garde sort of drag performance, gender bending, whatever. And, uh, but I felt like everyone was taking pictures at his shows. And so I really didn't want to take pictures. And he was letting me do my, I was doing my installations in the toilets at the Royal Vauxhall Tavern while he was on stage.

And there were these really mad nights and I was spending more and more time with him, getting to know him, and in the dressing room backstage and, you know, Like it took me years to actually photograph backstage because I just like there was always people knocking on the door wanting to take photos and I just thought it was so rude and so intrusive but like you know David in the end like was pretty much ordered me to photograph them backstage and that then became this real like almost like part of his process for many years.

having me in that, this tiny little dressing room, just photographing all those stages of the evening. And that's where the photo book that I did with him came from, because there's so much intimate work that had sort of grown. So now it's like everything is documented. And yeah, I guess back then, so I felt some people were well documented, others weren't.

But it's weird, like no one had ever done a book on David. And like in the end, I was like, Oh, I've got to do this before someone else does, but still no one's ever done. that. And I'm really surprised because it felt like everyone was photographing his shows and things. But, and yeah, I mean, people have really picked up on the importance of documenting queer culture now.

And like there is a big archive from at least the past 10 years, but I think there's not that much from before. And so, yeah, the, uh, you know, the queer archive is a, is a big thing now. And I think that's really important. I've been to the Bishopsgate Institute, which is in central London, and I know there's a lot of, they're doing a lot of work in sort of curating, you know, working class culture, queer culture, women's culture, you know, like sort of people have been marginalized before.

And, what you're saying is kind of, as I said, is really driving with me because increasingly I'm finding I'm kind of drawn to communities. I think before I was, you know, probably historically I was very much, you know, archiving or documenting run of the mill, like very mainstream stuff. And I'm finding myself probably more doing sort of parts of London that are slowly being gentrified and being hips, you know, becoming more hipster, but there's a little pockets where it's the, you know, the old, you know, Petticoat Lane market or some of these markets that are still, that haven't been gentrified, but you get the, it's, they're beautiful.

I find them, I love them in the sense of they're still rough around the edges and you get a good, you know, it's very mixed and it's more of the working class and. you know, it, what I'm hearing is the importance of kind of taking pictures of people who are not part of necessarily, on the fringes, not part of necessarily the mainstream.

And you're right, you know, like Bishop Gates Institute, I did a tour on, you know, their queer archives, and until quite recently, probably the last 20, 30, 40 years, there's more of a shift, you know, from  straight culture documenting us and their  lens to actually let's document ourselves. Yeah. From our perspective, from our lens.

That's what I was going to say. That's something that's always been really important to me is like this sort of from an insider's point of view. Yeah. It's so important. And  I used to do a lot at the glory, which was Johnny Wu and John sizzles place pub in the early days of that. And then you'd get the magazines coming down and just.

Like, taking these, like, very, sort of, surface pictures and that for their articles. I mean, it was obviously good for the venue and the people getting, you know, sort of publicity or whatever. But I always felt that, you know, they just popped in and popped out and I was always there. And, yeah, that's, that's always definitely something that's important.

And I think now more and more people are doing it for themselves, definitely. And I think that's really important, you know,  but I'm conscious of being kind of a white person going into very mixed areas and, you know, it's kind of, do I have the right lens?  Yeah. You know, so, but I do try to go in and sort of listen, you know, like it's the being seen and listen. 

And I do it with a twin lens film camera, which I have to say is now so unusual that people come up and talk to me, which is really nice. And to me, like what you're saying about The camera is a bit of a conversation piece. It is, you know, it can, or it can be. Yeah. Sounds like you've had a very varied career, which is, has been quite interesting.

You know, you've touched a little bit about sort of what motivates you sort of like documenting and, you know, sort of looking at, you know, what have, what's been your traditionally been sort of, you know, the queer community.  Do you have any other motivations that kind of drive you? I guess I've always, like, since a kid, always just had to do stuff, like creative stuff.

I've always just wanted to be good at, like, to me, like, doing art was like, always the thing like that sort of would like make me interesting or give me an edge or whatever.  Now I've been doing a lot of sort of collaborative work over the last sort of quite well yeah about five six years and it's like the people that I'm working with they energize me so much so yeah that's a motivation.

It just feels so good. I get such a buzz from working with interesting people, being around creative people. It's just, it gives me life, you know, it's, it's like, it's, it's food.  Uh, yeah. So I, I guess, yes, that's definitely a motivation meeting interesting people. It's yeah, definitely sort of the people. And what sort of projects are you working on with, uh, in these collaborations?

So for the past 7 years or so I've been working on a big project called People Like Us, which is literally about to, um, I'm about to launch as a photo book finally. Yeah. But it, yeah, it started, so it's, uh, People Like Us, it's a book exploring, um, Trans non binary and gender non conforming identities all from AFAB, assigned female at birth, perspectives.

And it started back in 2017 when a friend was sort of playing with a new name and was sort of started in the very early days of transition. And I was, we were chatting and I was learning stuff and I was like, Oh, I felt that my archive was very lacking in this sort of demographic. I've always photographed the people around me.

I, I've always had this thing where I, I have to get to know people before I photograph them. I've never wanted, although my work can be like, look voyeuristic and have that aesthetic, getting to know someone is like really, you know, that's really important. And so, There was a lot of gay men in my  work and, and that previously.

So anyway, yeah, I was learning. And then also around that time, other people that I knew were starting to come out as non binary. So yeah, so really starting to see other people coming out and I was sort of chatting with them. And it was, it was a lot of talking. I didn't want to do a project like there was, yeah, it was just a lot of talking and learning and.

And having a laugh really getting to know some of these people better. And then, yeah, I was like, Oh, maybe there is a project in this. And people like had a real appetite back there. I mean, it seems like now it feels like there's loads of work like around this demograph and which is brilliant, but there wasn't much back then.

And so, well, my friends certainly had. a real appetite for doing something. So we started sort of photo shoots exploring aspects of their identities that they were interested in exploring and it was very much led by what they wanted to do and like binding came up quite a bit initially which was something I didn't think I'd do because I thought maybe it'd be a bit cliche or even I didn't know if I'd get that.

personal initially.  It's like gone way beyond that now, but it, it was the things that they wanted to do, things that were happening in their lives. And so, so yeah, so project was born and, and it's grown and grown to there's 58 people in the book. Initially, so after about 12 people in 2020, I did like a little zine and a lot of the people in the project I have photographed sort of multiple times.

And we've also, we've done loads of stuff with it. So as well as, you know, sort of one on one photo shoots. We've done like little community shoots, did like a football game and shoot where they just, someone wanted to have that experience, uh, that they hadn't had as a child. So we had this sort of idea of living experiences that they didn't have growing up as children.

So there's sort of things, yeah, these sort of dreams. And we've done live photo shoots at clubs. Uh, we did a thing with Ducky.  Back in 2021 at one of their, they always do this antidote to gay pride, a big party called Gay Shame. And to be honest, until very recently, their audience was  predominantly cis gendered gay men and some lesbians. 

Not so much, it's definitely progressed now, but when we did our installation, we really stood out and we, We created a space that was sort of very trans non binary and people appreciated it.  And so, yeah, we did this really sexy live shoot that, and we held this space and, uh, yeah, and took it up and that was really cool.

Uh, I've done quite a lot of talks, also started an audio project, got hours and hours of audio, which we want to do something with, but we, we've done, something for the book with it, some little sort of talking pictures, but there's a lot more to do. And then this, all of this year, I've been working on the photo book, which was always something that I thought I'd probably do.

I think since doing my first photo book, it feels like, oh yeah, I'll make photo books. I don't know how to have exhibitions unless it's just me spending a lot of  time and money in some warehouse, which I refuse to do anymore. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I think photo books are a good way of getting your work out into the world and into people's hands who are going to benefit from it, actually.

Yeah. And it sounds like a lot of the work you're doing, as you said, creates the space, but also, you know, allows people to be, and to be seen and heard, you know, and it, this leads on to my next question, I think quite well. You know, it sounds like you've been kind of in the queer scene for a fair bit of time.

Have you, well, have you seen changes and what kind of changes have you seen? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, definitely. I mean, I, I mean, also I, I, I'm older now, so I see things differently, maybe, but, um, yeah, I mean, I moved to London in 2001  and I was like, not that far for a few years before that at university. So that first decade, well for me, was just very male, very gay, very clubby, very druggie. 

I'm sure that,  yeah, that still exists, but I, I think it's more about me evolving, I think. The sort of the weird, really queer stuff that I was first encountering that I mentioned. I think that's become a lot more,  mainstream wouldn't be the right word, but it's, there's a lot more of that, which has kind of diluted it a bit.

There's still some really brilliant weirdos out there, they're doing really interesting stuff for sure, but there's, you have to,  there's just a lot, a lot, but I guess that's a good thing. Yeah. But I'm not really, you know, I don't go out loads. I used to go out all the time and like, you know, I don't so much now anyway.

So, but yeah, I mean definitely, you know, there's huge nights that are trans non binary centered. There wasn't that before. And so that, yeah, you know, That's, that's definitely evolved for sure. So it sounds like it's kind of an evolution of the scene, but also an evolution of you, which quite frankly, I think is natural.

I think we all evolve or should evolve anyway, in my opinion.  Yeah. My, uh, my friend said, do you always follow the, you always follow the sparkle?  I like that. I like that.  I'm always, you know, yeah. After the next. The next thing, but I, I think, you know, that, that's probably a good way of, you know, maybe a good, well, not maybe, I think that's a good way of seeing life and kind of pursuing the, the sparkle, you know, why not?

Life is short. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I feel really lucky to be around so many like interesting, you know, exciting, funny people. I think, I mean, particularly, you know, with the project, People Like Us project, the, a big incentive, like, has always been to generate, like, really positive representation.

Yeah. And joyful representation, because a lot of, and certainly the stuff that, you know, gets into the, the big photography exhibitions or whatever, the, the look is very sombre and, focused on the hard sort of stuff. But, you know, I've always been like, all the people I know, yeah, they've had some really, you know, tough times in that, but they're bloody hilarious.

And they're so vibrant. And like, why aren't we seeing that side? So particularly with this project, I think in general, because I sort of quite like to have fun, I suppose. But like, yeah, bringing out that side. There's been, you know, the hard stuff is still going to be there. Yeah. But to have fun with it, uh, and really, you know, to, to bring out people's characters and personalities.

And I think, like, I'm a decent photographer, but I have realized that my skill set, the way I can apparently sort of make people feel really relaxed and free to, to experiment and explore and be themselves and, and more. Is, is, yeah, something that's sort of, like, really helped with this project and made it what it is.

And I think what you're doing as well, or what I'm hearing, is you're giving a, you know, a well rounded, you're, you're adding to the story. It's not just one thing or another, it's kind of giving nuance, it's giving, depth to people and, and kind of a more holistic approach rather than it's this or that. 

Yeah. I, I, like one of the participants, I remember them saying they loved how I kept coming back for more,  uh, because they, they, they were like, they're not like stuck in like one fixed image or I like of themselves. They've, they've been able to, to show their growth and, and that, and, and like, I've always. 

It's sort of like not so much now, but until fairly recently, I just always, I didn't want to bother people. So with the photography and that, I'd always be  not reserved, but caught definitely cautious and definitely at the start of this project, I was really, really cautious. And, you know, again, I think that's a strength in it and the long term.

Yeah, I'm always cautious with new people. I don't want to be, but what I've, my confidence has grown massively with this project and I have learned that people want, yeah, want the attention.  It's a two way thing.  So your book is coming out in December 2024 and, you know, if people can't make the event or haven't pre ordered, they can order it by your website.

So, you know, looking beyond the book and, you know, coming to my last question. So you're coming out with this book shortly, or in December. What's next? Do you have any plans after this or do you think it will come to you? You know, post launch review book. So next year I, with the book, I, I want to do like a tour all around the UK, sort of going around like a sort of queer, independent, feminist, intersectional bookshops.

Yeah. You know, around the UK. So it's not just London. There are people in the projects from all around the UK as well, although most of it has happened in London. So that's something that I'd like to do. So I think next year's a lot about the book and just getting it sort of further afield and that. In 2025?

Yes. In 2025. So there there'll be that. I would love to have an exhibition of this project, but I, I still, at this point in my career, I just, I don't know how to get an exhibition without doing it myself. And that's something I don't want to do anymore. So anyone out there wants to, to, uh, to exhibit us, uh, let me know.

But then also in terms of making more work, I, I do want to stop, slow it down. I mean, I'm, I'm still working with people from this project and the, the whole, the archive in general is ongoing and the crossover between my freelance and my personal work. But I also like want to take some time to go back into research and to sort of slow it down and.

Like, I think when I was doing those darkroom installations, that was the queerest thing I ever did. Like, you know, I knew it was different at the time and that, and that's what I was trying to do, but that really was queer photography. And I've sort of ended up photographing queer people and like trying to do that as queerly as possible.

And I think that just sort of, you know, that's organic, that happens because we're, you know, who we are. But yeah, I feel like there's a lot of people making this kind of work now and the sort of representation and that. So I, I want to dig deeper, maybe go backwards a bit and just maybe take more blurry pictures or something. 

Um, that apparently that's what queer photography is, but I, you know, just, yeah, go into other processes and yeah, find a way to, to evolve my photography somehow. Well, thank you. It's been really interesting and fun speaking with you and good luck with your future projects. Thank you. Thanks for having me.  I really appreciate you listening to this final episode of the series with Holly.

I hope you enjoyed it. For more information about Holly, including their social media handles, check out the episode notes. I really appreciate it if you could also write and review the podcast in the podcast apps. I look forward to you joining me for the next series of this podcast.