S4, E8 Sokari

Sokari is a photographer, curator and gallery owner based in London, UK. He is a self-trained photographer and his work is driven by his passion for architecture, art, design & the human form. His artistic vision is expressed through his photography, capturing the interplay of light, texture, and shapes in architecture, as well as the human form. He founded the London Lighthouse Gallery & Studio in East London, which has hosted ground breaking exhibitions by both rising stars and established artists from around the world. The episode was recorded on the 7 October 2024.

Website: www.sokari.eu
Instagram: @sokarieu
Threads: @sokarieu
Facebook: Sokari.eu

London Lighthouse Gallery
Website: www.londonlighthousestudio.com
Instagram: @londonlighthousegallery
Threads: @londonlighthousegallery
Facebook: London Lighthouse Gallery

Podcast details:
Podcast email: artiststalespodcast@gmail.com
Website: www.artiststales.net
Instagram: @artists_tales_podcast
Threads: @artists_tales_podcast

Transcript

Welcome to Artist Tales. The podcast that features and celebrates artists from different walks of life. I'm your host, Heather Martin. And in this episode, I'm speaking with Sokari, a London based photographer, curator, and gallery owner. Welcome Sokari. Hello, Heather. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good.

Yeah. Thanks for having me on your podcast. Well, thanks for being a guest. I really appreciate it. Um, so tell me a little bit about yourself and, and how you got into, you know, doing what you're doing really. Um, I'll start with the photography first.  Always been interested in photography from when I was a child.

My dad was always, always had a camera at home photographing us as kids. And, um, so, and yeah, I grew up with that, but then I also had a keen, I also had an interest in architecture for some strange reason, I don't know why. I've always loved buildings and, you know, external shapes and, um, like, you know, sounds and, you know, shapes and movements and things.

So, uh, my photography started off as a hobby first, and then I did that for quite some time, and I found out I was doing a lot of architectural photography. I do shoot, um, people as well. I do portraiture, you know, and I have a studio as well, so. But when I, in, when I, not doing like commercial photography for people, I sort of create my own photography, kind of fine art, using models and props.

But with the architectural one, I just love buildings, so I try and capture buildings and do abstract, um, fine art architectural photography, the shapes of the buildings. And, um, I tend to.  I'm drawn to shapes, texture, light, and color in buildings. So, so yeah, so it all started off, started as a hobby, and then I finished university, never studied photography formally, just doing it on the side.

And then, um, when I was working, I graduated in philosophy. I did a master's in business information technology. And my last job was with an investment bank in the city of London. I was working as a systems engineer, but that was where I think I sharpened my photography skills because I joined the photography club there, just as someone who did it as a hobby.

And we. You know, we met once in a month and we would do competitions and you know, I've just found myself getting better and better from the Walking, you know, watching and listening and learning from other people. And I got a break once to have a solo exhibition at a gallery. So that was when I kind of thought, okay, if people think I'm good enough, then I think, yeah, maybe I am a photographer. 

Yeah, because you have this imposter syndrome when you're not. trained as a photographer. But that solo show was, you know, it was an eye opener for me, built my confidence. Complete strangers came in, loved the work. It's different when your friends say, Oh, this is nice, but they're your friends. They will say that.

But when a complete stranger walks into a gallery, doesn't know who you are, and sees the work, and sometimes even buy it, makes you Yeah, so it sort of built up from there, then the gallery invited me back, because that show, they liked it, they thought it was a successful show. And I did another solo with them.

And then I started taking it seriously and at some point I decided it was time to quit my day job and just do it full time. So that's the photography bit. And then the gallery bit, which I'm now a gallery owner. That was also something I'd always had at the back of my head. And I think being a photographer or being an artist, one of the challenges you face is how do you get your work to galleries?

There's this impression galleries are snobbish and, you know, it's like a little click. So one of the reasons for setting up the gallery was to try and, um, first  have an avenue, a platform where I could encourage up and coming artists like myself, give a platform for people like me who  had to go through the unusual route to show their work.

So that was one of the basis of setting up the gallery and obviously I love art and we've been running it for just about three years now and it's, yeah.  So that's it.  So it's, it sounds like quite a big shift. So, you know, well, it sounds like a big shift going from like paid work into like just starting out as an artist and having your own gallery.

And I think many artists, whatever their artistic inclination is, quite often have a day job. And yeah, How did you find that shift, you know, when you decided, actually, this is what I want to pursue, you know, because I, I think for some, at least, it'd be kind of quite a scary, um, to do that. Yes, very scary.

It's a, it's a massive pay cut, especially. I did think about it, you know, while I was working, but then the, the fear of losing a regular salary was, you know, it's at the back of your mind. And when you've been used to a certain lifestyle, You don't just want to just give it up and say, Hey, so it didn't happen overnight.

It, um, I know I sort of tried to summarize it too,  because I'm conscious of time.  Didn't happen overnight. I, this was for a period. I, my work with my last employer for 10 years. And so it took that whole period for me to build up the confidence. And it was that same period. We had the exhibition and I didn't just quit after that.

I was looking for opportunities to, to quit. I thought of going to uni to study, sort of take a year off work, but they wouldn't give me that chance. I think I, at the time I was only allowed to take three months off and I didn't think that was enough for me to. If I wanted to go to uni and study and I didn't want to resign because yeah, like I say, you have bills to pay.

So a very difficult decision. However, an opportunity came. I was there for over 10 years. An opportunity came where they were moving our jobs to Poland and, um, we had the option to find another job within the London organization or take a severance pay. And at that point I was It was a point where I had, I was seriously thinking about it, and I had sort of had a, I wouldn't say, you know, you just, Make a decision that, you know what, maybe this is the right time.

You're not really happy doing what you're doing. And this opportunity came and the severance pay was going to cover at least one year salary. So I saw it as an opportunity to get the money and try it out. And I thought, you know what, I still have the skills. If it doesn't work, I can always go back and find a job.

But it was an opportunity that I just thought, if I didn't do it now, I would spend the rest of my life regretting it. If I had resigned from the job, I wouldn't get that money. So that was an opportunity where I just thought, I'll take it, give it a go. It's a bold, it was a bold decision, but I felt at that point it was the right time to do it, and, and that was why, so yeah. 

That's, yeah, quite an interesting journey, and I think in some ways having that year, you know, to say actually I'd give it a go, and I think, you know, there, I, I really do get that, you know, sense of if I don't, don't do it now, I don't want to regret not doing it. Yeah. So it kind of gave you that sort of, at least a bit of space to do it.

Now, when you decided, okay, you wanted to be the artist, did you also decide at the same time, um, I want a studio or I want to, or not a studio, but a gallery, or did that kind of come second, if that makes sense? It was kind of together because part of the gallery also has a photography studio. So I had had this plan.

You know, building up, you know, I said, if I ever have a gallery, since I do photography, I would have a section that was a photography studio. So yeah, so it was kind of the plan to take photography full time. And obviously I saw that I, so I had to make a business plan on how to transition because it's all well and good to say, Oh, I'm a photographer, but I wanted to have a business that would also help build, you know, rather than if you don't have a job.

uh, photo shoot or job to some client to shoot, then you're just sitting there and waiting. So I wanted an opportunity to have a business as well and have a studio I could shoot and hire the studio out. So we hire the studio out as well to other photographers and I could do my own shoots there. And the gallery is also available for hire for artists as well.

So in addition to me working with artists showing works, people can hire the space. So It kind of was sort of together in a way, although I started the studio first because it was hard to get a commercial space that I could incorporate the gallery. So I found a small space for the studio and then that ran for, I think, about 18 months.

And then I was able to find a bigger space that I could do both of them. And I'm just conscious too that, you know, Well, actually, I guess what I'm trying to get at is, how did you choose where to have your studio and, you know, your exhibition space or, you know, your gallery? You know, because I'm conscious that you're kind of in the east end of London, you're kind of in an area that has a lot of artists, you're near Trinity Boy Wharf, which is, has been regenerated.

So was it just a virtue of that's what you could find and that sort of thing? Or was it like, did you have some affiliation to that area? Yeah. Yes, I've lived in East London for  nearly 30 years. So, and I've seen the area change. And I, um, somehow I just felt this Was the part of town I, what I needed, I, I should open up the gallery or studio because I'd lived there for so long.

I saw what was happening. Trinity Boy Wharf had always, had been there a long time as well as an artist community. And I lived not too far from there. In fact, I did look for a studio space at Trinity Boy Wharf, but I couldn't get one. So it was, yeah, it was a conscious decision to be here and I thought it'd be cheaper as well if I went to the west end or west parts of town, London, it would be really expensive to get a space that I, that I would be able to use for what I wanted to do.

So yeah, and then, so when, um, I happened to, um, move homes to London City Island, which is where this gallery is. And it was by some coincidence, the development and the developer was, um, kind of, they had a vision of converting, converting the island into a creative space area. And the English National Ballet was moving there.

London Film School was going to come here as well. And I just thought this is the perfect place for it. I didn't have to think too far after that. And it was next to Trinity Boy Wharf, as you say. So yeah, and I thought, oh, there's a new area, new commercial unit. They'll be cheaper than, you know, normal places.

And more established places. So yeah, so that was how that decision, yeah, I didn't, I never thought I would be out of East London, to be honest. I always felt East London was the place to do it. Yeah, so it's kind of, that's your space, yeah, and you have ties there.  Now tell me a little bit about the curation.

So how did you get involved with that and, you know, what do you do really? So for the gallery, I've always been interested in art from being a kid, obviously photography, you know, even when I was at my job in the city, I was part of the, um, art club where we used to get tickets to see exhibitions. It was, you know, the company had corporate connections with the Tate and all the big names and you could get a membership, you know, for corporate membership for some of the big galleries and they organized shows for staff sometimes.

So I had membership for Barbican, Tate, and most of those places where, you know. So yeah, it was something I've always been interested in. And I, I think I have, I'm a very visual person and I've always had that. ability to, you know, to put things together, you know, and make it more visually, um, pleasant, if you like.

Uh, so same with my photography. When I shoot, I would, um, you know, I'm shooting a building and I always try and shoot the building. Most people say different from what the normal person will see. Uh, I sort of see, so it's, I don't know, it's just a natural. So, so, and when I've had my, um, solo exhibitions, I've curated the, all the, the shows myself, so it just was natural. 

I don't know how to explain it. It was just something that I just could do  without any, you know, it's just, I'm a very visual person. So for me, I think of something and I try and translate what I'm thinking in my head visually. So when I'm doing curation, so setting up the gallery was quite easy, just came natural.

And to, even to my surprise, You know, especially when I'm working with artists and a lot of artists don't know how to put their works together. So I just say, okay, tell me what, tell me the story behind the, your work, and I'll be able to sort of put it together to get the story out the way. And most of the time it just works.

The artists are pleased. Yeah. It's, I think it's just some natural, my friends always, I liked interior. I like to design and my friends used to, when I was growing up, I was the, Go to person if somebody wanted to buy something for their home or the furniture or it's just that, you know Say no that wouldn't work there.

You know, this would work  Don't put that there  So it's just and yeah, I Really can't explain, you know It's just something that I've always done from being a child even my parents my mom My sisters would dress up and ask me You How does this look go? And I would say, no, no, change it, wear the other one.

It's that time.  No, change that earring and put this one on.  So, so it kind of sounds like almost like an instinctual sort of thing. Yes, it's thing for me. It's very instinctive. Yeah. You know, going back to what you're saying about, you know, choosing the area and how it, you know, certainly, or choosing the area for your studio and gallery and having that connection, and I can imagine over the last 30 years or so, as you said, it's really has changed quite a lot.

How much has that influenced you in terms of being an artist? Oh, very much, very much. Because especially being an architectural photographer, I've practically seen nearly all the buildings come up from scratch. And because I love buildings and I love texture and light and movement, I, it does affect my art.

And I try to, and I love history as well. That's it. That's the other thing that, so when I'm taking photos, sometimes I'm imagining what the space used to be, the place used to be before. In fact, my first, the first solo show was called East of the River, which is all about East London. And it was more on the, it was based on the transformation of this part of town from what it used to be to what it is now.

So yeah, it has. It definitely has. I'm influenced by shapes and changes and sort of, you know.  . I didn't if that answers your question, but Yeah, no, it, it does. And I, I'm, I'm also conscious of the history because, you know, many years ago I did live on the Is of dogs and even then people were saying, oh, it's changed so much.

And, you know, and that, that was quite a number of years ago and I, it's changed still since, you know, quite a lot. And so I was always, always very interested of what was there before and people's histories and how. different it was. You know, it was probably for quite a long time, particularly, I would imagine since the Second World War, it was kind of bombed out and, you know, the decline of industry and stuff.

And it's gone from kind of a more deprived area to something, you know, particularly around Canary Wharf and, you know, there's money  and it's almost like 180 degree turn. And I can imagine it's still kind of going through that process. And I'm sure you can see that not only in the architecture, but kind of the communities.

Communities, yeah. Definitely. No, I can. And one of the things I, when I've reflected on the area is, like you say, it was bombed a lot. And, but before then, this part of town used to be like the powerhouse for the economy because all the docks were here, all the goods used to come in from all over the world, from, you know, if you go to Canary Wharf, you have West India Quay, which is where the Dockland Museum is.

That building used to be the building where All the goods from the West Indies and the slaves used to come to, that was the dock they had to. Canary Wharf itself is named because that was area where, um, the goods coming from the Canary Islands come. East India Dock Basin is here and the street I walked in that area and the streets were named Notmeg, Oregano, um, Saffron, Saffron Avenue, all connecting to the spices and things that used to come, so East India Dock, so goods used to come in from the East.

So the powerhouse of London, which sort of declined and it just suddenly, like you said, come around full circle to Canary Wharf being a financial centre again, which is where  the, another powerhouse of London. So yeah, so I'm really interested in that. And I kind of saw in as much as, as much as I'm shooting and taking those photos, I am influenced by the thoughts of what was there before.

And, um, Yeah, trying to project the current version of things, if you like. Yeah. Yeah. I guess there's just that connection throughout history and it's trying to, I guess, respect what has happened and what was there with, you know, the changes in the future and that sort of thing. Now just thinking of other influences on, on sort of what you do as an artist, you know, who, who or what has influenced you apart from being in, in the East End of London?

Architecture is something I love. I, I always joke that I, I was probably an architect in my previous life or something. Fortunately, I didn't study. So I'm influenced by, you know, great architects and great architecture. So we have modern day architects, you know, Zaha, Rogers was um, my brain, Frank Gehry or the superstar and just naturally building.

So in terms of photography, it's very strange. Cause I've been asked that question when I was starting out. Who was your, who? I am very, like I said before, I'm very visual. I, take a lot from what I see, um, without necessarily following a particular artist  or a particular photographer. So yeah, I feel somehow, it's always not, I'm  almost, it feels like I'm being cocky, but I really don't.

I know I'm getting influence from lots of people, lots of photographers and lots of, because I'm very visual. I look for things and all. But when I'm shooting a, uh, when I'm taking a photo, I'm usually just thinking at how I imagine it from my head  and I want to try and recreate what's there. Sometimes you, you, it will turn out to be something that's, looks like something someone else has done before.

Uh, which is where I believe, you know, you have these unconscious influences of people that affect you as you go day to day. You don't register it as, oh, this is a photographer I love. But, you know, I do have photographers that, you know, Annie Leibovitz, uh, I love her work. And, you know, there's, you know, Yeah, so I do love people, but she doesn't do architecture, she does portraiture,  and it's different.

So, yeah, but in terms of what drives me and where I get my, what influences, it's those, the buildings, shapes, color, texture. If I walk by the street, I see a texture, I see a building, and I'm looking at the texture of it, and I'm trying to see how do I interpret that. so that the viewer can feel it the way I feel it, if you like.

And, um, so yes, um,  not quite the conventional answer of, oh, by so and so and so, but it's just, I'm influenced by everybody, really. Yeah. Well, and that's fine. And I think, you know, some people, it will be specific artists and other people, it's just what you see. It could be artists, it could be walking down the street and seeing a particular, you know, building or even, you know, not necessarily building and how things are constructed.

It's kind of what influences you. So when you're looking for things to photograph, like particularly architecture and that sort of thing, is it predominantly London? Is it, or do you kind of travel around a bit to, to different places in different countries? Yes, I do. Um, that's the one good thing, my previous job that was, I'm really thankful for, for, for that job because it gave me the opportunity to travel.

I love traveling as well. So most of my works architecturally are from all over the world, you know, Europe, America, South America. Yeah. I, and there were, I was almost, I chase buildings if you like sometimes. So if an architect, I really liked their work and I've seen it on TV or know about this new build, I would plan holidays around that.

So that, you know, make short trips if it's Europe or when I'm, you know, Brazil, I would go. Oscar Niemeyer is one of my favorite architects. I would, so when I was in Brazil, I, you know, sort of just went crazy looking for everything Oscar Niemeyer  and photographing. So yes, so I do not just London based. In fact, I think I, I've not, I haven't done enough justice to London because when you leave in a place, you take it for granted.

I'll go tomorrow. I'll go tomorrow. Uh, but when I'm overseas, because I know I have a limited time. I kind of just spend time just walking, I, most of my holidays I'm walking the streets, not, I don't do underground or trains or public transport, because that's the best way to see. So I chase buildings, chase architects, and, but then there's so many buildings you, I've photographed that I didn't even know existed.

So while you're going to look at one, you see something. And some of my best works, I think, have come from such buildings, so it's almost like you're in, you have that moment and that time to take this picture of the building, because you'll probably never be back there again. Whether the weather's good or bad, you, yeah, you're not going to go back when it's raining, because you have only three, four days to be, or when it's sunny. 

I was going to ask actually whether, you know, you go back and revisit places, or is, do you just kind of, you go do it and that's it? Um, there are places I've gone back when I have felt I didn't have enough time and I could do better. Yes, I have been back to places. I remember flying into Bilbao for a day because first time I was there was for a short period.

The weather was great and I thought I'm not going to go into the Guggenheim Museum because Why stay indoors when the sun is out and I can explore the city? I spent the whole Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and um, shooting external and stuff. And I had planned to go in on a Monday because the weather forecast was Monday was not going to be very great.

I wanted to photograph the inside. And then woke up that morning, got ready, And found out that the Gallery Day Museum doesn't open on Mondays. Oh no! So that was really annoying and quite depressing. So I made a point of duty to fly in on a Tuesday or Wednesday in the morning, just so I could do the photographs inside and then I flew back in the evening.

So, yeah, so there are buildings I've revisited. I've been to Liege a few times, Paris, you know, and sometimes it's not because I intentionally want to, it's just when I'm there again, because even with the same building, you can photograph it differently when you go back because of the light conditions, the weather conditions, you know, the way the shadows are hitting the facade and stuff.

So, yeah, I'm, yeah, I obviously like Brazil, you know, far away. or Japan  is not somewhere you can just say, okay, I'm heading to Japan now for the weekend.  But I, I would love to go back to most of those places. Yes.  And do you get many, you know, whether it's architects or building owners or, you know, companies who manage buildings, do you get people contacting you now, now that you're established, kind of asking you to go out and take pictures of their building?

Yes, I have had some, not as much as I would want, uh, because a lot of these organizations have their own photographers that they rely on and trust, but I do have some. I have, uh, uh, the company Italy, I posted one, a photo of one of the buildings that they did the glass, the, the special, the speciality is the glass facade of buildings.

So that's what they do, and a lot of big buildings in, in the world, actually, they. They cover it with that. So they're based in Milan and, um, yeah, I posted something on Instagram once and they, they liked it and said, Oh, that's the best photo of our building. I had no idea it was their building. And I said, thank you.

And then when I had my third solo exhibition, that photo was going to be in it, I completely forgot. So last minute, I just messaged the same Instagram account and said, Hey, by the way, that thing is in that show. And if you're in London, I didn't even know they were in Italy at the time because the building was in London. 

And I said, I'm having this show. If you'd like to come and see blah, blah, blah. And then it's, Oh, we're so sorry. We're based in Italy. But, you know, we're, anyway, cut the long story short, going fast forward later, I got contacted by someone from the company and asked me to do it. I posted another  building that did, and they said, Oh, we would like you to photograph that building.

And they gave me sort of access to it. That's the, um, it's called the can of ham in the cities. And It was sort of, yeah, it was, again, it was just random. I didn't even know it was their building. So yeah, and since then I've got work from them. I've done other, there are other organizations I've shot for, but not as much as I would like,  as most artists would say.

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I mean, have there been any challenges you faced, or what kind of challenges have you faced, or, you know, currently facing as, as an artist and a gallery owner? First as an artist.  I sort of talked about that sort of on the touch the surface. It's like I say, most organizations already have their photographers and it's all about, you know, who they know.

So it's hard to break into those kind of places to say, Hey, I do this kind of work. Can you, can I do shoot for you? So that's the big challenge. And it's something that I've faced and I'm still facing in terms of, um, being an artist as well, which is again, one of the reasons I said, I set up the gallery.

It's just that, you know, galleries are perceived to be sort of close knit. You don't just walk into a gallery and get your In there, especially with the big, big ones. So that's a challenge, getting yourself out there, finding, getting opportunity to show your work and, you know, being able to sell work, you know.

At a reasonable price, you find people tend to, uh, because photography, everyone's a photographer these days because you have a phone,  so people tend to devalue what you do. And even when they want you to do work, you get a lot of offers, but they don't want to pay on the, or they want to pay you peanuts because they, they don't appreciate it as a profession, the way they should, you know, other professions.

Um, So I think generally most artists face that problem, but yeah, photography is very common. Yeah, people come and they tell you, oh, we want to, or we'll, we'll tag you, or we'll, you know, mention you in our thing if you do it like, no, mentioning is not going to pay my rent. So, you know, if you want me to work for you, you need to pay.

So that's that. Then I think the second part was on the gallery. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So the gallery bit, you know, a bit similar, but we're a new gallery. It costs a lot to promote, you know, again, in the, in the big established, um, publications and things. It costs money to put yourself out there. But one of the things we've done is use social media.

Social media can be free, but you know, you have the paid ads as well. So we've used that a lot and that has given us a lot of, you know, visibility. People know about us on in that part of, um, the art world. Um, lots of artists and when we, we have this, we try and do a show to every month, and one thing I've realized is the more shows you do, because you're engaging with different artists, each artist has their own following.

So if you have 10 artists in a show, you've just sort of multiplied your reach by 10, because each of those artists have people that follow them and they will tag you and spread the word and more people get to know. So every time we do a show, we get new people that have never been to the gallery come.

So we're in a part of East London that again, that's not so well known. It's not Oxford street, which is where, you know, so many people, but we do get traffic. So that's a challenge trying to get. us out there, but I think in the three years we've existed, we've managed to get ourselves known enough. Uh, obviously there's more work to be done.

I think, yeah, it can be that process of building up, you know, the, the awareness of, uh, both as a, you know, an artist, but also the gallery side of things. Yeah. Kind of things. And yeah, just also to mention, and also to build up a client base that would be, you you know, like to buy the works from the art from you as a gallery and to help the artist.

So yeah, so that's another thing we're slowly building. Most of the established big names already have their big buyers and client lists. So I think the challenge is how do you get to those collectors that you can say, Hey, I have this artist or I have these works here. Would you like to come and see how do you get press to cover you, uh, when you have important exhibitions or.

or shows or artists that you think need to be seen. So I think that's, you know, one of the biggest challenge that we have. But again, we're getting known every single day. I mean, where we are today is not where we were last in the, when we first started.  So, yeah, it's just, I guess, just hang in there and keep pushing, and hopefully,  hopefully get there.

Yeah, and I'll definitely put, um, you know, the details in the links, both to you, you know, as the artist, but also to your gallery. And the name of the gallery is The Lighthouse, isn't it? It's called London Lighthouse Gallery and Studio, that's the full name. We always like to include the studio so people know it's a full, yeah, so London Lighthouse Gallery and Studio.

Great. And I'll include the details in, in the description of, of this episode. Now final kind of question is what's next? So what, what are you planning next in terms of whether it's, you know, exhibitions or whatever the next thing is really? Okay. Cool. As an artist, one of the disadvantages of being running the gallery is not giving me the chance to travel as much and also to do my own projects, which I used to do a lot when I didn't run the gallery.

So I have some projects in my head that I would like to do as an artist either, especially in the studio. But it's been hard to, to combine both and make time to do. So in terms of being an artist, I have a project that I've been, I've worked, done some of it, but I would like to finish that shooting with models using, I've, I've got some already on my Instagram. 

Using a colorful sailing rope that I bought. for that project. So yeah, so that's that. And then obviously there are buildings outside the London and outside the UK. I would love to travel to see, I'd love to go to Aziba Jam to photograph Zaha Hadid's building there, which is just stunning. Yeah. And many more buildings. 

And then in the gallery front, we, we still have time. There's, we're currently Black History Month, so we have one of our biggest artists, Jacqueline Sawari, who is showing here for the second time. So that show will end, finish at the end of the month. And then we have two more shows. in November, and then that will be it.

And then we start to plan for next year. So those are, sort of, what's next for the gallery. And then next year we'll take a break and plan what shows and stuff we want to do based on what we did this year. Yeah, so that's in 2025. 2025, yes. Yeah. But, yeah. But this year we're sort of rounding up the last three shows. 

Yeah, excited. The work here is great. It's, she's a ballpoint pen artist. She's known as a queen of the ballpoint, and known globally. And we're privileged or honored to have her work here for the second time. She does on massive, large scale, so. Well, I hope to get out and see it.  Yeah, you should. It finishes at the end of the month, so try to be here before the end of October.

Great. It's been lovely having you as a guest on the podcast, so thanks again. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Uh, yeah, I think this is my second podcast  ever, so. Wow. A bit  not quite used to it, but thank you for having me.  I really appreciate you listening to this episode with Zakari. I hope you enjoyed it.

For more information about Zakari, including his social media handles, check out the episode notes. I'd really appreciate it if you could also rate and review the podcast in the podcast apps. In the penultimate episode, I have a really interesting conversation with the founding members of FIKA, Book and Zine.

I look forward to you joining me for the next episode.