S4, E4 Sinéad Smyth

Sinéad Smyth is an artist, painter and curator in Donegal in Ireland. Her paintings explore landscapes and seascapes as places of memory, connection and a nurturing influence on being human. The episode was recorded on the 26 September 2024.

Website: https://sineadsmyth.com/
Instagram: @sinead.smyth.artist, @sineadsmythart

Podcast details:
Podcast email: artiststalespodcast@gmail.com
Website: www.artiststales.net
Instagram: @artists_tales_podcast
Threads: @artists_tales_podcast

Transcript

Welcome to Artist Tales. The podcast that features and celebrates artists from different walks of life. I'm your host, Heather Martin, and in this episode, I'm chatting with Sinead Smyth, who's an artist and curator in Donegal, Ireland. Welcome, Sinead. Oh, thank you very much, Heather, for having me on your  podcast.

I'm really excited and, uh, yeah, thrilled to be here. Well, it's great to have you. I've been really looking forward to speaking with you. So why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself and what you do, and a bit about your background?  I am an artist and a curator, as you've so eloquently said. I began painting in oils, and my first ever painting, I think, was a portrait of my oldest son on wood.

I've always been interested in creativity and art.  And I actually applied to go to art school and I got accepted after the interview, although my parents said no. The way it was working in the south at the time, in the south of Ireland, um, was that because my father was a teacher, we were automatically discounted from getting a grant.

So I was totally reliant on my parents. for any form of third level education if I wanted it, you know. Yeah, so, basically I was told, no, you have to study a science, and I found a course in Coleraine in Northern Ireland. It was Geography, and Geography kept me in touch with the landscape. I'm, I've always been a visual reader.

I'm very good at, if you put somebody's painting in front of me, like a well,  An artist who might be doing the gallery circuit, I generally know who it is. See those, uh, do those exhibitions that are incognito and stuff like that? I can generally tell.  I shouldn't go to those things because I can pick out the artists that I'm familiar with very well.

Yeah, so I'm a good visual reader.  I picked things up almost empathetically from, from, you know, paintings, and I have always been interested in map reading, drawing maps, all of that. So the, it seemed like the best, uh, available alternative that I was going to be allowed to do. And after that, I went to, like, I have been many things, I have to say, I went into environmental education.

I went into community services where I. I did cross community work in Belfast in 1995 with different sections of the community, people from different traditions, engaging them in projects together to cross this sort of inverted commas, not to between, but to cross the divide. So I've had a long journey to get where I am today.

I've taught in different schools, I studied teaching, I'm a secondary school geography teacher. Thank you. And then I've also studied over a three year period a master's in counselling and therapeutic communications. So it's, and as part of that, always very, very interested in neuropathways  and  neurodevelopmental issues related to trauma.

And especially childhood trauma. And I think I went into that area in order, it's, it's like I have a very analytical brain and I really wanted to understand where my own issues were coming from. Without sort of sitting with a counselor and talking through everything, do you know what I'm talking about?

I wanted to really understand and the, the neuro neurodevelopment was something I got really interested in. And then from there. philosophical arguments and, uh, yeah, so I've always been interested in the creative side of actually making and doing, but further than that, the conceptual elements of art and why we make art and why we do what we do and different philosophies in artistic development.

So, it's, it's, yeah, it's taken me a long, rich round, but it never left me, you know. It was a very strange thing, and I suppose in many ways people would say the universe provides. But every now and again something would happen to bring me back into the creative art world. If I veered away, say I taught in a school for six months teaching Geography and IT,  which is  a bit strange for me now to even think about.

But something would pull me back, somebody would ask me to do a project involving creative design of a garden, or pull me into a cross community workshop in the Crescent Arts Centre in Belfast, or, you know, there would, things would just happen, so I was always pulled back into the art world. And I think after traveling around Europe in a camper van with my three year old  in 2000,  I just wanted to return to Donegal instead of going back to Belfast.

I wanted that quieter, less complicated life. And I had the opportunity then to make a down payment on a house. That had an art building, which I have turned into my artist retreat in cottage in the studio here that we're sitting in tonight. So yeah, it's been a very long journey. I mean, I'm 52 now,  , so,  and I've just got here. 

It sounds like you've had quite the journey to get where you are at the moment and you know, looking at your social media profile is predominantly. painting, but it sounds like you do more than painting, so how would you describe your artistic practice, or what do you do artistically? I inquire. I ask questions of myself.

I always think the purpose of an artwork is to raise more questions than it answers. That's my own personal take on it. Obviously, everybody has a different opinion, and all of those opinions are very valid. But for me, art is meant to raise questions, it's meant to make you sit up, be aware of something bigger than yourself.

So even when I'm painting, I love painting en plein air, I love painting outside, all at once, a la prima. I'm generally self taught, but I have been heavily encouraged by so many people. several incredible artists, and I feel very grateful for that. They've, you know, obviously seen something in the way I work and, you know,  wanted to encourage or foster that a bit further.

And do you find with being self taught, do you feel there's a freedom in that? You know, because I sometimes find, you know, I, I'm a self taught photographer and, you know, I do know a lot of people and, you know, part of me would like to do a degree or an art degree, but I've also met people who've done art degrees and I don't know, it, it kind of influences how they think and they almost think, in a way, I see sometimes they kind of get very, I'm doing this kind of project where I have to think of a theme and.

You know, for me, it's just going out and taking pictures, and there's probably themes there, but I kind of feel there's a bit more of a freedom. Yes, I think sometimes that, and I probably make a few enemies by saying this, but,  that, yeah, the qualification of an art degree, for me, sometimes seems to follow a scientific method.

It's almost like there's This sort of patriarchal gatekeeping on being a visual, specifically a visual artist of any kind, in my mind. You know, if you come across a musician and they're a musician, you don't start asking them where they studied music. You know, you don't jump in and say, Oh, where did you study music?

And what is your qualification? And this and that. It's, you know, if they say they're a musician, they're a musician. You know, if somebody says you're, they're a writer, yeah, they're a writer. But if you say you studied art or you're an artist, it's immediately, the immediate question is, oh, where did you study?

And unless you have studied it, there's almost this gatekeeping ethos that you're not allowed to say that you're an artist. I don't know if you've ever experienced that, but it's a, the scientific method means that you have to show your research. You have to research your topic. You have to show your research.

And there's great value in that. Because, I mean, I've got an analytical brain and I can see the value in researching something for a prolonged period of time, gathering your information, and mindfully crafting the project or the film or whatever you're creating. And some art forms, visual art forms, really do follow that, you know, do best in that line of query.

But there's also an open creative mode where people can, if you have practiced enough in your art form and you know your materials and you know what you're doing, then you can flow  with  the, for me specifically, the oil paints. And the activity becomes, it becomes a collaboration between you, the paint.

the brushes, the time specific that you are spending in this creative mode. All of those elements come together and influence the output. So for me the pressure is off me as an individual and it's more on me sort of pre empting or listening or noticing and taking care of how I'm making the marks on the canvas, how they're coming together, are they depicting what I want,  You know, but I, and then I'm going what I wanted to do, but also pulling back from what I want to allow the paint space in that conversation.

You know, it's, it becomes that  collaboration and conversation. But that's, yeah, that's the painting. And the other side of what I do is community engagement. So I've just  in. I'm coming to the end of a residency, a month long residency, in the Centre for Contemporary Arts in Derry, and it was an opportunity for me to go in and explore and take risks with my artistic practice.

So, as well, I'm, I'm very good at getting people outside and painting and drawing and doing things and encouraging them to actually not be perfect and not releasing that pressure of having something to actually look exactly what is in front of you, you know, it's, so that was part of the project along the Derry Walls, but as I said to you in our brief chat before this podcast.

I was diagnosed with cancer in June, and if you've ever looked at the walls of Derry City from above, they're this elongated oval, and it just, it reminded me of a cell, and I was thinking to myself, how can I use the Derry walls to deliver some kind of question or message or combination of both? And  The idea of drawing a line around the walls in chalk, just one very fragile line, and washing it off with rainwater as I progressed, literally, getting rid of it as it was born, came.

I didn't get permission to do that. because you have to apply to the Derry of, Derry Walls for permissions to use the walls in any form or film on them or any of that. But, um, I was allowed to draw lines on the pavements on both sides of the walls, you know, and I understand totally a no mark policy is the best way to preserve such an historic site.

But yeah, so I ended up drawing lines in chalk and then I wanted the chalk to be Or, you know, uh, biodegradable. I wanted to really know what was in the chalk. So we, I looked into egg, egg shell, chalk. You can make chalk from eggshells and flour and, uh, yeah, it's really exciting and rainwater. So I, I gathered the rainwater from the walls in the city and, uh, some of the children from the church's trust, which is. 

Wonderful organization that really work for young people in the city and they're interdenominational. They don't push the religious aspect  of anything. They're really there to engage and support the young people in doing what they want to do. They work with two kids  who are registered homeless  and kids who have  difficulties with substance abuse.

They work with children who are diagnosed autistic. They work with children who are just generally having a hard time and need a bit of support network. So their reach is fantastic. Yeah, I have a lot of time for them and what they do. And with these kids, we made The Chalk. But there's also a film made that I, I actually spent half my residency budget on the film.

Paying somebody else to do it, you know, to record. the, the actual um, project. And then I also curate. So, uh, I've been looking at people's work, curating people's work for a long time. And I resident associate artist with a group called Echo Echo. Um, uh, they're a dance theatre company and they have a space on the city, their only building on the city walls of Derry.

So you're wondering maybe why I have such a relationship with Derry when I'm living in Dominic Isle, uh,  which is just over the border. Derry is actually half an hour from me. And I grew up in the city because my father, uh, worked in a school called St. Peter's, which was in the bog site on the crag, on the hill of the crag, since the early 1970s.

So he was up and down over the border all his life. And in fact, if you open anybody's purse here, there'll be a border down the center, and you'll have a, uh, sterling British pound side and the euro side.  Because, uh, you know, we're constantly walking over and back through your line, you know. Uh, so, sorry, lots of information there thrown at you. 

No, no, it's, it's all very interesting. It sounds like there's many threads in, in your art, you know, like you've had. You've described kind of your journey, you know, through your education and your, you know, your teaching and working. You did say earlier that you're drawn back to doing your art and that sort of thing.

So I was just wondering how much do those threads in your life and even, you know, the residency and some of the work you've done, how does that influence you in terms of an artist? It encourages me to be even more out there.  You know, um, I suppose some of the projects I've done with, with young people, for example, I was working with a group of young people and some, I think there was one young person who was a selective mute and a couple of very quite difficult young fellas to engage with and you're talking 18 or 17, 18.

And it takes a while to get into their trust, the circle of trust, and for them to know that you're not trying to, you know, use them in any way whatsoever. You're authentically looking for their ideas and their thoughts. And we had several conversations. And the pieces of art that came out of those conversations, the one I'm thinking of actually specifically, was called Punchbag.

The conversation went around the idea of how they feel so angry. towards the people who are supposed to be in an authority and in charge of them, look after them, uh, sometimes that they want to punch them. So we spent our budget on a punch bag, you know, black punch bag. And we put, uh, small mirrors on both sides.

We had a splitter with two headphones coming down over the punch bag. And we created a poem, which was a continuous poem. And it was like, yeah, the face I'd like to punch the most is yours because And then they would add something to that poem, uh, individually. And so even if they participated by writing one sentence, they contributed to an incredibly powerful piece of art.

My daughter, who was 15 at the time, read it because I could give consent to that. I didn't want any of  the kids reading it themselves. But, um, it, you know, people came away from that installation with tears in their eyes, that they felt that it had hit home very literally. There you go. no pun intended, that it hit home. 

The piece went on tour then to Crumlin jail at one point and was very well received. Yeah, and another piece was called Hooks and You. I took a group of four boys to a charity shop and we bought, they'd never been in a charity shop before, and they're, and they're, you know, they're, they're top quality tracksuits. 

And, and trainers that cost more than  my entire outfit or whatever, but um, they were, they were in, they were in the charity shops looking around and they were like, Oh, you know what? These things aren't half bad and here, my God, look at the price of them, that's brilliant. So we ended up buying a grey Nike or Nike, whatever, hoodie.

And the conversation around this piece was about living in Derry. That no matter what part of the city that you lived in, that there were individuals within your community, if you were a young man, there were individuals in your community trying to get their hooks in you, trying to get you to toe their line, to do what they wanted you to do.

So we suspended the hoodie from the ceiling, Uh, in a sort of like an outstretched mode with fishing, fishing gut, fishing wire. And we sourced some lead fishing  weights in the shapes of tear, teardrops. And suspend, and we got fishing hook, hooks and we put them through the hoodie and, um, It was like the teardrops were hanging at different heights.

Um, they were just hanging down. And the whole, the whole thing just came together absolutely beautifully, as if it was just, this was meant to be. So I think, to go back to your initial question, what inspires me is, that inspires me hugely. That people who perhaps were told that they were bad at art, because they couldn't draw what shoe or still life was put in front of them, or they couldn't sit still long enough to draw that because of various elements that were going on for them.

You know, these young people have the capacity to be that creative if they're given the opportunity. Yeah. And it sounds like, you know, you're working with particularly young people from very difficult backgrounds, whatever, you know, whether it's neurodiversity or, you know, trauma, you know, that sort of thing.

And often, and I think in many people's lives, like you were saying, you know, you're kind of told you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do this because of whatever reason. And it almost, you know, it kind of stops people from actually trying and doing it. And particularly, I think when you're young, being told that can have a profound impact on, on somebody.

And it sounds like you're kind of challenging that and really kind of getting people to come out of their shell, really. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. The human race, is creative. If we didn't create, we didn't survive. We created tools, we created fire, we created shelter. So that is when you use your hands to make something was when you think creatively and problem solve in order with the end result of survival.

So when people say they're not creative, it really, it's like a knife in my heart. Because you're looking at somebody who is wearing the most beautiful earrings or has the most fabulous, fabulous pair of trainers you've ever seen on their feet. And, you know, these are things that they have specifically curated for themselves and picked to put together to wear, to present themselves in.

And you're kind of thinking, please don't say you're not creative. That's absolute rubbish. I think what happens. in my own opinion, is at a very young age, in, in, say, primary school. The teacher, who is  generally a very nice person, with the best intentions, gives praise to very specific ideals of what art is.

You know, so, the teacher will praise a child that draws something almost as if it's real, or that's very detailed. Or that, you know, so the teacher has a very narrow mind regarding what art should be. And the rest of the children in the class, who are not stupid, realize which children are getting the most praise for their creative output.

And they begin to compare themselves with the work of these other children. And they just give up and they go, Oh, I can't draw, I'm not creative, I can't draw a straight line. So, you know, for me being creative is as far away. and drawing a straight line as you can get. But as a society, we have kind of this ingrained in our minds that unless you can pick up a pencil and draw that cup exactly as it is sitting on the table, then you're not creative.

And we seem to gaslight ourselves by not creating. Ignoring the ideas of, and, and, you know, modern art or impressionism, and we, we don't quite get it. We don't quite understand it, you know, so it's not really art. So somebody tell me, you know, it's Picasso, not art and  , you know? I know. Yeah. And, and it's like, you know, I, I always say to the children that I'm working with, nobody ever became famous as an artist. 

by drawing something that everybody else can do. Yeah, I also am aware that some artists, not all, but you know, some become quite famous after they die. You know, they're not appreciated in their lifetime. And I'm sure we can think of many, many artists who fall in that category. But I agree, I think often people have a very narrow view of what art is or what good is.

We see, this is to move away from the idea of this is good. This is good. Who's jumping?  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it works. It either works for you as a viewer, you engage with it, it speaks to you, it does something for you, it demands your response, it demands your attention, or it doesn't, you know. So if it's working, then it's communicating with you.

Art is the very,  And that in itself can be very powerful, you know, particularly from the sounds of it, you know, the, the young people you're working with as well, it kind of opens them up and they're able to express things that perhaps they have not been able to before. Absolutely. And it instills such a sense of pride in themselves and confidence.

And you want to see those young folk walking, like, we selected several pieces of their work and we put on an exhibition. Which a lot of people came to, and people from the Arts Council and everything, and they came to it and it was amazing. It was incredibly well received and it really spoke to everybody who walked in through the doors of the gallery space.

And those young fellas walking round going, I made this.  Such a confidence booster, isn't it? Yeah. Oh yeah, it was great. It was so, it was just absolutely, you know, it was just right. It was good to see. It was good to see. I wanted to ask you, sorry to change gears here, you did mention that  You run a retreat.

Is it a retreat house or a treat? It's a, it's a cottage, yeah. Artist's cottage, yeah. Could you tell me a bit more about that, and how you got started with the retreat cottage, or the artist's cottage? Yeah, well, the, the cottage was built in the 1800s. It's been on the map since then. Uh, it's an old, vernacular Irish cottage.

It's very long, and it has taken myself and my husband 10 years to, uh, renovate.  So  that's some time and dedication to put into something. But I, do you know when you walk into a space and it's just crying out for people to be in it, you know,  and I always think that I'm a great believer in vibrational energy and I don't want that to sound kind of airy fairy, not at all.

Uh,  I just think that when a house is lived in the, the. People who live in the house kind of energetically charge the stone of the walls and that it carries some echo of their presence. It's just my own personal feeling. And if you walk into a house, you can feel a really good energy. You go, this is a lovely space.

This space should be used for something. This is a creative space. And after I finished, well, on the journey of renovating the house, We've turned part of it into a studio, part of it into a living accommodation with two bedrooms, and I don't mind saying so myself, it's very beautiful. We've renovated in lime, which is the traditional building material.

We took all the, any cement out from between every stone in the building, and re rendered in lime, and then plastered in lime too. So where you would get a corner along the wall, um, towards the window, In this house, all the corners are smooth, smoothed down by the, the palm of your hand, the curve of the builder's hand, which is, creates this lovely soft rounded light.

And the lime itself has an off white, kind of warm glow to it. So it creates a lovely space and so then I run, getting back to the art retreats, I, from September to June, I run a weekend every month where people can come and they can learn various aspects of creativity.  So I enjoy encouraging people. I love seeing the lights switch on and somebody say when they actually get what you're talking about.

When you can bring someone to the point of being independently aware of what they are doing and the process they are taking to make their painting. You just don't splurge paint on the page and expect something to become something or to be a great painting. There is a process. And I'm, I'm a big one for, for demonstrating the traditional style of oil paint application and then allowing people to work with it on their own terms.

So at least if they have the foundation of how the medium practically works, uh, in the studio now, that's different to outside on veneer, it's a totally different ballgame. If you're painting outside, there's, there's a joy in trying to capture the immediacy and the relationship between the sky and the sea and the mountains and the cloud shadows that cover different aspects of the, the landscape as, as the day.

progresses and the light changes. And again, there are so many shades of green in this part of the world that it's, uh, it's very difficult to capture. But one thing I do specifically try to encourage is instead of, like, that people mix their colors, that they become competent color mixers. That they know  how to get to a certain grey from their colour mixing, rather than splurging out some black and white onto a palette and getting a grey, because that's, that's a lifeless grey.

That, that grey doesn't exist in the environment, you know, and like, uh, also things like, you know, if there's a dark shadow, you then to view that as an absence of light on a certain colour. So then you're looking at the colours around that, what are the tones and what is the saturation of the colour around that, and how can you darken that down, uh, without overly, um, distressing the pigment.

I could, I could talk about this all day, but anyway, I, I love, I love sharing that with people, and, and for them to go away with completed paintings. or maybe a couple of projects that they can then work on at home.  It sounds like you're really creating a safe space for people to really explore their artistic side and play around a little bit.

Yes, that is my aim, to create a space where people don't view their creative endeavors as mistakes. I think we're pushed heavily towards, uh, things having to be perfect, or having to be completed, and not everything needs to be completed. Some things have a life outside of needing to go onto a wall for an exhibition, you know?

I mean, I think works of art are like individual people and we, you know, not to sound twee, but we all have our own journeys that we take part in and sometimes a work of art is a series of marks. That allow you to vent visually  your frustrations perhaps or your emotions or your connection to the life you're living and not all of it needs to be hyper real.

And that can be very difficult for people to get to, you know, a point where they feel confident or confident enough to experiment with.  abstracting what they see, pulling back from looking at life in 3D colour and pulling back from that, taking elements of it and creating something new that says something a little bit different.

I'm just allowing that space, it's just It's very nice. I love it. I just love it. I, you know, asking them to, you know, consider things differently and ask questions of themselves and, you know, what is that line doing there? Where is it going? And, you know, I think we, we sometimes focus a lot on having a piece of work presentable that is ready to frame and exhibit, you know, considering, you know, Where is this line going?

Is it taking the viewer's eye off the canvas? And sometimes maybe that line just needs to do that. Take the viewer's line off the canvas because it just wants to.  And that's just a mark you made. And we can be heavily critical about ourselves as well. I think, yeah, no, I agree. I think we can be super critical of ourselves and it's nice to be reminded that even life isn't perfect.

So just that, you know, can be reflected in an art as well. Yes. And everything has a place. Every mark that's made has the right to exist, shall we say. And then you, as the editor of your work, can negate some elements of it, um, erase other elements, build in over the top, change the mood, change the palette, change whatever you want, because ultimately it's going to go in the direction that you need it.

But I think there's a sensitivity that I like to encourage in people that they sort of make those decisions alongside considerations of for the materials and the just the atmosphere of what's happening as they're making that has an element to play in what you create as well. So it sounds like you've created this wonderful space for the Artist's Retreat.

You've had a number of projects and things that you've worked on. So where do you think, you know, things will go next? Do you have any other projects you'll be starting to work on? Or do you have a sense of direction at this stage? Ah, do we ever have a sense of direction? We're all over the place.  True.  I just completed Derry and tidied up my mess.

Which resulted in, uh, the documentation in film form, and I was able to present that to a group of artists, the Donegal Visual Arts Network, recently. Which I, I find very emotional. The response I got from that because it was the first time I'd done that. You know, the first time for everything, I suppose.

So that was one project I've just finished. As far as the cottage and moving forward with,  in a way, supporting other artists to do their thing and also bring in, you know, New people who are just newbies to the creative world. I, yeah I've got an artist coming over, a photographer coming from London next week actually, which is lovely, and we will tour around a couple of exhibition openings and we'll probably end up painting en plein air together through the week.

And I have an artist from Philadelphia coming over, or sorry not Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. coming over for three weeks to, to live and work here. It is my hope that in the future, it's something I'm working towards next year, is to provide accommodation for free during the off peak times in the winter months.

This is 2025?  Yeah, yeah. Again, it takes time to work these things out and to plan ahead and then to create an open call that people can respond to. Um, I can put four artists. And I would love to see four people working together and see what they can kind of create through conversation within themselves and get some partners on board to show that work.

Again, whether it's complete or incomplete, I think, you know, incomplete works are very important to be seen. And a lot of them never see the light of day, which is is the title of our Winter Open Exhibition this year, um, which the call will go out very shortly now, but the, with the Echo Echo Dance Theatre, we have an annual Winter A5 Exhibition, and what we'd like to do this year is support the unseen artists.

So the exhibitions will be called Light of Day and it can be interpreted whatever way people want. And they submit an A5 piece of work as a donation to the dance theatre that the, you know, sort of like artists supporting the arts. As a way of giving back, but also that their work becomes part of a digital archive with a group called ArtLink.

And we're kind of exploring ideas about, you know, how, what to do with that archive. Do we catalogue it digitally? Do we create a printed catalogue? Do we create a differing curated exhibitions on specific themes where the archive will be dipped into and things like that. artworks picked out to show on different themes.

Yeah, so there's a lot of things happening there with that, but I would like to see the possibility of my artist retreat becoming a place for people to come in Ireland and, um, financially I cannot personally afford to fund their travel, but I can give them the accommodation and the studio and it's self catering.

So, you know, if you have a space. and the means to create in the studio. That's the beginning, and people can often apply to their local Arts Council funds for monies for travel. So combining all of that, you can actually get a residency for a couple of weeks for, not for free, but you know what I mean, in support, like a supportive residency.

And for a lot of people, if you have families, a three month residency is useless.  What are you going to do? Take your, unless you can take your kids with you. It's also very, very important for an artist and creator's mental health to engage with other creatives. So from that perspective, to lift yourself out of your normal living experience and to be in a position with other, maybe two, three other artists  where you live together for two weeks and create in the same studio space.

I just think that's something I would love to do. It's like a Christmas gift or a birthday gift or something. Always choose something that I would like to receive. 

Do you know what I mean? So I, I would love to do that. So that's what I would like to offer. And that's, that's probably my main goal for next year with the cottage to,  to offer those supportive residencies. Just listening to you, I agree. I think it's really important for artists to have those connections and those, you know, spaces and connections to, you know, grow and, and sort of share ideas and work things through, or at least get sparks to kind of go out and create some more really.

So I think, yeah, I know it sounds like quite a nice project and sort of focus. And I think it's, it's well needed because with, certainly in the UK, the funding for arts is just, dwindling if it was ever very much anyway. So I think it's really important to kind of create these spaces for people to kind of have that those connections and sharing of ideas really so yeah I know it sounds very interesting, but I hope it does um take off and i'm very tempted actually to come over and visit myself Oh, we'll be gladly happy to come over Heather.

It would be a pleasure Yeah, i'll definitely come over then i'll find a way. Yeah Well, great. It's been wonderful speaking with you. So thank you for being a guest It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for listening to me rambling on about all sorts of things.  No, it's been, it's been very good. So thank you. 

I really appreciate you listening to this episode with Sinead. I hope you enjoyed it. For more information about Sinead, including her social media handles, check out the episode notes. I'd really appreciate it if you could also rate and review the podcast in the podcast apps. In the next episode, I have a really interesting conversation with Bill Armstrong, who is a photographer from New York.

I look forward to you joining me for the next episode.