S4, E2 Ellie Laycock

Ellie Laycock is an award-winning British artist based in London who explores the urban environment and it's impact on residents, ideas of power and control, politics and the passage of time. The episode was recorded on the 1 October 2024.

Website: https://ellielaycock.co.uk/
Insta: @ellie_laycock
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EllieLaycockArtist/

Podcast details:
Podcast email: artiststalespodcast@gmail.com
Website: www.artiststales.net
Instagram: @artists_tales_podcast
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Transcript

Welcome to Artist Tales, the podcast that features and celebrates artists from different walks of life. I'm your host, Heather Martin, and in this episode, I'm chatting with Ellie Laycock, an award winning British artist who explores the urban environment and its impact on residents, ideas of power and control, politics, and the passage of time.

Welcome, Ellie. Hi, thank you for having me. Well, thanks for being on the podcast. So would you like to tell me a bit about yourself? I mean, I did sort of talk about who you are, but just tell me a bit more about yourself and your background as an artist. Sure, so I started doing a foundation course at Norwich School of Art, and then I went to Kingston University where I did a fine art degree in sculpture.

I was working with metal a lot, welding, casting resins. But I also started to get interested in photography at that time. I was lucky enough to go on a bus trip from New York to Los Angeles. It took about three and a half weeks and I had a camera with me and I'd actually borrowed my friend's old analog video camera as well because this was like a massive adventure.

And just, you know, the landscapes over there, uh, the scale of what I was seeing was just really feeding into this developing love for photography, which is what I eventually ended up specializing in and working in, in a commercial sense.  So I didn't technically study it, but kind of moved into it in the end.

And now what I do is mainly photography, but it's, it's become a sort of expanded practice really in the last few years, which encompasses textiles. Some sculpture and experimental film making as well. In a way you've touched on my next question in terms of, you know, what you do artistically. So it sounds like you have a few things that you do in terms of, you know, whether it's photography and other things.

Yes, I think, um, the photography that I do is, is documentary. So it's capturing what already exists. And then the other work is making things that don't exist. So they're things that want to, I feel like they want to be birthed into the world. And my job is to make that happen. So they sort of, I enjoy taking things from concept to reality, I suppose. 

So the textiles thing, I mean, I have a side hustle. I run a business called hunted and stuffed, which is an e commerce textile business where we upcycle vintage kimonos into throws and cushions. So there's always something textile y going on in the background. And there's also a history of textiles that runs through my family.

So my roots are up North. My grandmother worked in text, in a loom, on a loom in a textiles factory in Bradford, and so did a lot of her ancestors. So there's about five, I think I'm a fifth generation textile worker, and, but that, but I work in textiles within my art practice, so.  I end up making things like, um, I've been making banners for unions that I think should exist.

So there's always a political thread that runs through my work and a sort of fight for social justice, I would say. And, I mean, with textiles as well, there's, it's, it's, It's like the language of women, if you think about the history of textiles around the world. Historically, it's mainly women that produce them and they tell stories through them as well.

And it can be, that could be through, you know, fair isle stitch or a certain way of knotting a rug, you know, and that's a global repository  of women's stories, which I kind of find fascinating as well. Do you find that, um, that kind of story making, storytelling or story making, I was going to say, I guess it's a bit of both, can it be very subtle and very subversive in a way?

You don't necessarily notice it when you see an object. Yes, absolutely. And that makes me think of, well, it makes me think of all kinds of things, but it makes me think of the sort of Afghan war rugs and the motifs used in them so that, you know, you could have a rug and hidden in it is like an AK 47, because that's telling the story of conflict around the people that are making the object.

It's like they're putting their life, it's like they're putting their life stories into the objects and communicating in a way. It also makes me think of there was a textile with a woman, I think she was in a mental institution and she used her long hair to sew into, you know, a scrap of fabric. I don't know where the fabric had come from, maybe from her top or something, you know, like, I don't know, I find it, it's quite an interesting area.

And it's because I, one thing I've recently really come to believe is that everyone it's possible for them to be a creative, like there's this idea that, oh, you have to be skilled or only certain people, you know, but actually everyone has the capacity. Now, not everyone might want to be, but I think there's a lot of people who do.

could have more creativity in their lives, but maybe they weren't encouraged at school or whatever. And so they think, Oh, well, I'm not creative. And actually cooking a meal can be creative or, you know, skipping down the street or having a little dance or singing to yourself in the shower. It's all creativity, I think, and I think it's such a fundamental, fundamentally important thing for humans that I just think it should just be encouraged and celebrated as much as possible and not squashed, and not, you know, have it shamed out of people, you know?

Yeah. Or have a very rigid view of what art is, you know, that kind of definition. Yeah.  You know, it made me think as you're talking, you know, I guess a couple of things that, you know, particularly the role of school, I think, in people's lives and, you know, to hear that, a message does, as you say, of you're, you're not this, you're not that, you're not creative, you're not technical, you're not, you know, you're not into maths, whatever, and how much that can have an impact on a young person, but also people's perceptions of what's good and what's bad, what's art and what's not.

So I remember for every series of my podcast, I'll ask people who I think are creative, who I think are artistic. I remember having a conversation with someone and asking somebody who in the end decided not to be a guest, which is fine. And her partner was like, No, you know, you're not, you're not an artist because, you know, she was into playing music.

And I just found that quite shocking that, you know, this person's view of art. was excluded. It kind of was very limited and very narrow and it excluded the musical, uh, you know, side of things and people who could be musical. And I just found that quite shocking in some ways. Yeah. I, that makes me feel really sad hearing that because like, who gives you permission to be what you want to be?

Like when I started working as a commercial photographer, I started out as an assistant to photographers. It took me ages to feel comfortable saying, I am a photographer.  But then once I did start saying that, I kind of settled into it. And it was only, I'm going to say, well, it's in the last 10 years. I started to say, I am an artist.

And that felt, it felt, I felt like I was like kidding everyone when I first started asserting that about myself. You know, but I am, that's what I am. And now I am. I've, I've been making music. So now I'm starting to say, well, I'm also now I'm, I'm a musician as well. And that feels really weird at the moment because it's still new and I haven't like grown into it or it's not comfortable.

It's like a coat that. I'm not comfortable wearing it just yet, but I am putting it on. And I would, I would encourage any, you know, everyone to try on these coats. What kind of music do you make? Well, I mean Or would like to make, I should say, or both, maybe. Yeah, well, no, I have recorded, um, well, I'm releasing a single in a couple of weeks. 

My first one. Wow. Which I'm really excited about, but also terrified. But, um, I think, you know, It's, it's out of your comfort zone and in these places where you feel vulnerable and you feel exposed, but also excited. And you know, this is where the magic, this is where magic things happen. You know, when you are extending yourself, when you're trying new things, you know, it's just, I guess over the years you just sort of toughen up and you're like, well, I have to put the thing, whatever it is, whether it's a piece of art or I have to put it out into the world.

Otherwise, what's the point, you know? And then once it goes into the world, there's going to be feedback. And that's the bit where that's the terrifying bit because it's like, well, what if the feedback's terrible? You know, but if it has to go out into the world, there's no way around it. So. You have to learn to just deal with that, and toughen up, and, you know.

And in a way, who are you making the art for, I guess, is, you know, something that's come to mind. Yeah, well, that is a really good question. I mean, I'm making it for myself, but I'm also making it for everyone else. And by that I mean, I make it for myself because it's my fundamental way to express myself, and It feels really important that I allow, I feel like it's the thing I'm meant to be doing.

It's my raison d'etre. So that's why I do it. But because a lot of my work is sort of highlighting injustice, I feel like I'm on a bit of a social mission as well. So there's some activism mixed in of trying to make the world a better place basically for others and me and everyone. So that's what drives me. 

I was going to say that sounds like one of your motivations. Is it quite a key motivation for you? Or, you know, are there a few things that, you know, trying to get across, you know, whether it's, you know, social justice or I don't know, reflecting back sort of what's happening in the world? Yeah, I mean, I can only speak to my own experience and I can't represent others unless they give me permission to do that.

So, but, you know, my experiences. Being a single parent, it's being on a low income, it's being from a working class background, it's trying to make work in the face of not having any money or not having, not being able to afford a studio, not being able to weld things on my kitchen table or cast resins because I've got a child in the house and, you know, it's very limited.

It can be very limited. But all that does is just sort of strengthen your tenacity and drive and creative thinking, problem solving. You know, how do I tackle these things? How do I, um, how do I still get to do what I want to do even in the face of all of these things? But I think it's also just sort of who I am.

I mean, I'm involved in pretty much everything that I'm involved with is sort of trying to improve things. And I think it's so important that, you know, particularly in art, there's a multitude of voices because I think, you know, quite often, what is often defined as art is, you know, particularly the upper classes, you know, and if people in lower income are lower classes and, you know, I hate, I personally don't like the class system, but you know, there's a lot of assumptions made by people about people in lower income.

And I think it's really important to have, I mean, I personally think, I don't know what your view is, to have different voices coming out and actually being authentic and honest about your life experience. Yeah, I agree with you, but I mean, you know, In the current climate, I would say, especially with the way that some social media is going, you know, if you admit that you are on a low income or God forbid, you know, you need, you know, some benefits or something, then you really are opening yourself up to quite a lot of vile abuse, basically.

So there's being open and then there's sort of being open, not fully open. Yeah. So it's difficult. And that's, I think, a fair point, you know, you're right in the sense of kind of, I don't know, it feels like quite a nastiness at the moment in terms of, you know, perhaps people in lower income and, or even immigration and sort of benefit scroungers and you're just thinking, really, you know? 

Yeah, well, I mean, there was quite a sort of concerted effort by Channel 5 to sort of, you know, Benefit Street and all of that to kind of, I mean, they call it like poverty porn, don't they? But I think in general with, you know, Elon Musk's purchase of Twitter, that it's lurched to the right. I mean, there's lots of governments lurching to the right, you know, there's a lot going on.

It's very, feels like a very hostile environment, very strange time to be alive. And also with AI scraping artists work to train up models, to train up people. spew out similar work. I mean, are the arts, artists are really under threat at the moment. And there's this narrative as well. There's no, you know, especially in the UK, well in England, there's not really any support for artists.

You know, the arts and creative subjects are being stripped out of the curriculum at school level. You know, there's no, there's, there's not really much support for artists other than Arts Council grants, which are really hard to get. And you need to know the language, which a lot of working class artists wouldn't necessarily know.

Yeah, I just think it's just, it's, it's really infuriating because you have people in charge who don't respect the arts at all or support them. And yet the whole of society relies so heavily on artists and creators for all of their things that they consume, you know, film, music, television programmes, theatre, all of the things that people enjoy listening to or watching, that's all made by artists.

And why are we, why are they not being, you know, why are they not being supported more to make more of that stuff? I just find it very odd. Yeah, and I do think there's, um, you know, to be human is to be creative, you know, there's a creative or artistic side to everyone, even if people don't think there is, or at least the potential.

And it is, and I do agree about the AI. It's a bit of an unknown beast at the moment. It's a bit, it has the potential of, could be aspects of it, of being very positive, but it also can be used for the detriment. And. There is, I agree with you, I agree with the worry about, is it going to, you know, what's going to do to the arts?

Yeah, I mean, I have, uh, one of my best friends is an actress and, um, you know, she, uh, was telling me that there were the strikes recently in America because contracts were coming out saying, you know, we'll get you as an actor to come into this. Casting studio for the day, we'll record your voice and basically then give you 50 quid or whatever, you go and then we've got your voice and then we can like use that like in perpetuity to, so, so that, so that voice artist no longer has any agency because the thing they, their unique thing, which is their voice, which they would be paid to come and read this and come and read that, you know, like small print on a contract.

Suddenly they don't even own it anymore, so no one's going to hire them because the unique thing's been sort of commandeered away from them, do you see what I mean? It's very, very weird. Well there's that, and also I think there is the thing around, I think even doing video, like having deepfake videos. In terms of, you know, it could be somebody looking like Obama or, you know, or whoever.

I'm just thinking, okay, Obama's a political figure, but you could have any artist or any actor. They get their image and they, you know, through AI or through technology, they can make them do things with and say things that they wouldn't normally say or do. Yeah. I mean, it gets really Orwellian really quickly, doesn't it?

Yeah. And I think this is where we really, as a society, need to work through, you know, the place of AI and its limits. Yeah. And sooner rather than later. I agree. I mean, there was a quote by, um, Zuckerberg recently. He was, um, talking about, you know, the scraping of data for, from artists. And he just said, well, Because there's some backlash against it because art is copyrighted so it's not allowed to just scrape everyone's work.

He's done it anyway and he said like, oh the individual work of most creators isn't valuable enough for it to matter. And I'm like, well if it's not valuable why are you scraping it, you know? That's just complete dismissal, not only of artists themselves but of their copyright. You know what it is, it's this power imbalance, this is something that you know, I react to quite strongly is this, it's abuse of power, Facebook versus little artists.

And just coming back to your own art, I mean, I know you've done, you do a lot of sort of social stuff and, you know, playing around with different ideas. Who or what has influenced you in terms of your art and, and how you kind of explore things? Well, I would say definitely got to mention Julia Cameron and her book, The Artist's Way, because that is about creative recovery. 

And I first read that book, I think, 2017, and I just had an epiphany about this. It's a sort of workbook with exercises in, it's a 12 week, you read a chapter a week, do the exercises, and it just massively unblocked  me and my practice. I didn't realize that I was blocked in that way until I did that. And it unlocked a lot of, uh, it answered a lot of questions or it gave me the tools that I could answer a lot of questions that I didn't even realize I had when after that, I really could take myself seriously as an artist and started being an artist and really going for it.

So that was a massive influence. But then I think about people that I think of as sort of heroes, David Byrne, I find really interesting, the guy from Talking Heads and what I like about him is he, he does. So many different, his, his creativity comes out in so many different ways. So he's got the whole music thing, but you know, he wrote a musical called Here Lies Love with Fatboy Slim about Imelda Marcos and he's written books, you know, he makes art.

And I just love that. I love that. The idea that someone is so sort of full of creativity, that it comes out in all of these different ways, because that speaks to me because I've You know, I'm always doing different things and I have always been like that. Even when working as a commercial photographer and I was told, you know, you've really got to specialize in one area.

You've got to do portraiture, I've got to do interiors or fashion, but you've got to pick one. And I'm like, Oh, why do I have to pick one? I love interiors. And I like doing portraits. And I just, I've always thought, it always feels like I don't want to be in one little box. I've, I've loved having an expansive practice.

So when I see people like David Byrne, who also have an expansive practice, that just really appeals to me. And also I've found, um, Sleaford Mods quite, uh, inspiring as well. And I'm aware now that a lot of my people I'm looking at are musicians, but that's all under the banner of creativity to me. So, but what I like about Sleaford Mods is this sort of post punk attitude of, I don't care, I'm just going to do it.

And I don't care if it's perfect. It's, I've got, I'm going to do the thing. And it's not going to be, you know, it might be a bit wonky, it might be a bit dodgy, but it doesn't matter. And that was really freeing as someone who's sort of, you know,  could be a bit of a perfectionist. Everything's got to be perfect and that can be quite restrictive sometimes.

So that's the thing I find with, sorry to interrupt. That's one thing I find with rock, you know, rock, you know, kind of the rock and roll is it, there's a raw energy to it, kind of a rawness to it. Yeah. Yeah, I can see what you mean about it kind of challenges that of perfection. So I'm a bit of a perfectionist myself and it just let it go.

Yeah. You know, it's really hard when you're a perfectionist, isn't it? Yeah. Just let it go. What do you mean? No, not till it's ready.  You know, but then they can sometimes that, you know, the pursuit of perfection gets in the way of getting things done. You know, there's a middle ground there, a happy place between the two.

And then, um, I mean, George Orwell, very fundamental to me. I think, um, 1984, I read that when I was quite young. I think I bought it from the library for 50p. I think it was probably like 1986 and someone thought it was out of date and stuck it on the sale. Um, and then people like William Morris. Who's, um, socialist activist.

Yeah. Kay Tempest. They have an amazing way of not only connecting with the crowd, but having the crowd connect with itself and people in the crowd who dunno each other. Connecting with those around them is very powerful. Mm-hmm. Thing that they're able to do. Uh, they've written a book called On Connection as well, but that, that's a magical, magical book.

Yeah. Are they a poet? Yes. It's sort of spoken word. , but also musical. They've released albums and, um, and a tour gig. Do gigs and stuff. Yeah, because I, I do follow them on, um, again, social media. I can't remember which one, but yeah, I always, I always thought they were a poet, but yeah. Thanks for clarifying

Yeah, well, they are as well. I think  they, I, they, they do more than one thing. Hey, it's the way to go.  . That leads me back to a question I wanted to ask you, and I think it was da, it was David Byrne you mentioned earlier. Yeah. Yeah.  What made me, that really kind of struck me as well, because I, you know, I, I feel, I mean, the word that, the words that came into my mouth, uh, head, or the phrase was pigeonholed, and I, I struggle with that myself, because I'm a photographer, and I've gotten now into podcasting, I've gotten into ambient sound a bit, and it feels like I'm, you know, it's taken me a long time to start exploring.

You know, other things in that creativity. And so what you said around, David, really hit me and struck me that in many ways, I think many of us have different aspects, or not one thing. And I do find it really, like you, quite frustrating, like, Heather, you're this, or, you know, Ellie, you're that. Or, you know, you kind of, people know you for one thing and they hang their hat on that, you know, and it's like, actually, I'm more than that.

Yeah, I know. I feel like we should be slash slashes with this slash that slash, you know, model slash actor slash chef slash. Yeah, but I think many artists are multidisciplinary and we may know them for one particular thing. But quite, you know, a lot of artists I've come across do many things, you know, whether artistically or they do an art form, but they're into other things as well.

And it's just. It's fascinating what people get up to, I have to say.  Yeah. Well, I think if you have, you know, I think if you're an artist, then you are inquiring about something essentially, or examining something. And so if you have that kind of mind, It's no, it's not a big leap to think about different ways of doing things.

You know, I can see why people could branch out, but then I mean, it's tricky, isn't it? Because to kind of get really, really good at something, you have to practice a lot, don't you do it a lot. So.  I'm not really sure where I'm going with this train of thought, to be honest. Well, I think, you know, it's kind of, in many ways, you know, you might have a thing that you particularly, you know, you're particularly strong at, but it's not to say you can't dabble in other things, or you might have two or three things you're very good at.

And I think also it is partly aptitude, you know. I have picked up things that I've, are interested in that sort of thing. I like music. Can't really say I'm a particularly strong musician. I used to play the violin and I was proficient enough, but it was not the strongest. But what it's done is given me an appreciation of music of, you know, both classical and non classical.

Couldn't hold a tune to save my life,  but it's given me something that You know, I, I feel very fortunate I had that exposure as a, as a young person. Yeah. You know. Well, and that's why it's so important that these things are in the curriculum or there is access somehow for young people, otherwise they grow up without having ever touched these things or, and I think that's just such a shame that the wider experiences that young people can have just gives them more scope for things they might want to do.

And you don't always have to do things for a job, you might just want to do it as a hobby and that's fine. Mm hmm. But if, you know, you don't know, if you've never had the chance to be exposed to it, you don't know, you've no idea if you would be into it or not. So that's why exposure to things is so, is good, you know, I think.

I agree. I think it allows people to, you know, experience different things and, and sort of open the mind to other possibilities. Broadens the mind. Definitely. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Now, you've probably touched on this a little bit, you know, in our conversation, but, um, perhaps you can just talk about some of the challenges you may have faced, uh, or have, are facing being an artist.

I'm, I've just turned 50, so  I'm, you know, apparently, 50 years young. You can't be an emerging artist at 50.  Two fingers to society on that one, I have to say.  It's tiresome. So yeah, it's very frustrating. Um, cause you know, I was doing other things like raising a family, you know.  Yeah, really, it's just, it's, Not being rich and not being well connected, basically, are my issues. 

So, you know, it just means, um, it's harder, but I'm not going to let that stop me. You develop a lot of resilience, I think. You have to kind of just keep applying for things as much as you can. I tend to have a bit of a rule of, I don't really,  There's a lot of photography competitions and things out there where, you know, they want quite a lot of money to enter and you could easily spend a lot doing that.

So, you know, if there's anyone out there who's on a low income and is doing photography, you know, I would say go for the free ones first, or, you know, set yourself an annual budget, say right, you know, I'm going to give myself 60 quid or whatever it might be for the year. I mean, that's not much, but you know, and, uh, I'm going to pick and choose what I'm going to apply for.

And some of the big ones now we'll let you I think there's a recognition that, you know, this is a barrier to people of lower, you know, economic strata. So they'll let you put one in. I mean, whether they actually look at them, I don't know. But yeah, we just have to keep plugging away, I think. Because otherwise you give up and then that's the end.

So applying for things is also good because it does help you build resilience. And once you get no's or you don't get any reply at all, which is worse,  After a few of those, you, they just start to kind of be, you know, water off the duck's back and you know, okay, well, not this time. In fact, I've got a folder called, Not This Time, Try Again.

And when I apply for something and it's a rejection, I kind of move the whole folder into that folder of like, oh, well, nevermind, keep trying. It's basically as a little reminder to myself, you know, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Don't take it personally. It doesn't mean that you're rubbish. 

It just means it hasn't worked out for reasons that you don't know what the reasons are. And it's quite difficult when you are submitting things because there's probably going to be hundreds if not thousands of pieces of work, you know, pieces of art, whatever that artwork is. And, there's elements of personal preference from the judges, there's an element of who else is submitting stuff and wanting it to all work together and that sort of thing.

And, you know, I remember when, I mean, I've not submitted much myself, I think it was partly due to shyness and also feeling a bit discouraged. And as I'm getting older now, you know, I'm not much younger than you. But it's kind of like actually just go out and do it. And what I'm finding is as I'm showing things to people over the years, you know, particularly more recently, what I'm noticing is I can show an image to one person or a group of people.

They'll have a certain reaction short to somebody else or another group of people, and they'll react in a very different way.  And like you say, it's not that what I'm producing is, you know, it's not that it's bad. It's, you know, I think it's quite good. And generally the feedback's good, but it's just, I find it really fascinating how you get the really different reaction to things.

And I find it very difficult. Like I'm trying to put stuff through and, you know, think I'm good and not get in or not, you know, not quite almost, and it can be quite disheartening, but you're right. You need to be, you know, you do build up that resilience and persistence really. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's just part of the process as you do it more and more and it's, um, it's good because the first time it happens, you're like, it's the end of the world, you know, but, um, you have to keep trying.

I mean, it's still, you know, it's still upsetting, whatever, if it's a really great opportunity and you think you're a good fit, your work is a good fit for it, you know, and you, especially if you put in a lot of time and effort to pull the application together, but it is a numbers game and. Yeah, I just don't take it personally.

It's hard, but But yeah, you'll get through in the end, I think, is what we're saying, I hope.  Yeah, there'll be one that comes good and then it'll all seem worth it. Yeah, definitely. That's the theory.  That's the hope, yeah. Yeah. So, I guess the final question for me is, sort of, what kind of projects are coming up?

What sorts of things are on the horizon for you, do you think? Well, I've just come to the end of a big project. I actually joined, well we formed a collective, myself and four other artists called Fractured Land Collective and that's Leanne Chan, Ellie Reed, Jane Peacock and Caroline Thompson and myself.

We just had an exhibition at Discover Bucks Museum where the museum invited us in to look around their collections and pull out pieces, objects. artworks, paintings, gold coins, things from their collections that we could make work in response to. So the show was called This Fractured Land, stories from the past and future.

And out of that project, I also produced a book with Jane, and I think it's nearly sold out. I think there's only about five copies left available on my website, if anyone wants to buy the last five. So that was, that was a really interesting experience, working with a museum in that way and with the curators.

And the body of work that I was showing in that was about Kett's Rebellion, which was a peasant's revolt in Norfolk in 1549. The project was called Commotion Time, which is what the, that rebellion was known as locally. And it was really, It was about enclosures and theft of the land by the rich, basically, and, uh, you know, taking the commons away from the poor.

And the commons were communal patches of earth with, um, resources on that everyone was able to share. So, like twigs and wood for heating, you know, fishing, um, grazing your animals.  So it was community asset, basically, being fenced off for rich people to make deer parks. So the injustice of that, I'm like,  uh, you know, um, so Robert Kett was a basically, a local yeoman.

He wasn't even sort of on the poor end of things. He was more towards the Lord's side of it, but he took it on basically. And there was an uprising. And so I've made work about that and the kind of things that they were asking for, you know, like all bond men be made free, affordable rent. Cause I thought these issues that 500 years later, we still need these things sorting out, you know, this is the same struggle in different. 

different times, same struggle. And so that's why I thought it would be interesting to explore that, you know, but through the lens of today, really. And actually with these sort of free ports and special economic zones that are on the horizon, which are basically the modern, a modern iteration of carving out, stealing a piece of land for your own profit.

Only this case, it's not, you know, landowners doing it, it's corporations. So, I just think things go in cycles. Things repeat. History repeats. Stories repeat. And if we don't learn from what went before, we're going to end up making the same mistakes over and over and over again. Which, you know, doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, they say, is the definition of insanity.

So, um, I think my work is, um, about these kinds of things really. It's like, what are we doing? What is this? Like, why are we doing this, this way? It's terrible. It hurts people. Let's stop doing it like that because it's awful. That's the bottom line for most of my work really. It's a cry for common sense.

Well, common sense and compassion. Compassion, yeah, exactly. So I'm in this weird space now, I haven't started my next project, but I've just finished quite a major one. But I've also, I've got this music thing going on, so I'm at the moment focusing on that, so I'm releasing a single and um, I've got an album lined up, it's just like I've gone completely sideways but you know what, I'm just going with it because that's what wants to be birthed at the moment so I'm just facilitating it.

Fair enough. So when, when's the single end album being launched? Like what, what are the dates? So single comes out on the 11th of October, 2024. Yeah, 2024. Yeah. And the album, I don't know yet. It's all mastered and ready to go, but it's, I'm on quite a steep learning curve. Hmm. So I've realized there's quite a lot of other work that you have to do apart from just making the music turns out.

So, uh, yeah. But probably. I would say the first half of 2025, that probably will be coming out.  I thought I was going to ask you the last question earlier, but I guess I have a few quick ones now. What kind of music is it? So I would say it's somewhere between UK hip hop and electronic and Experimental.

Yeah. No, it sounds very interesting. I'd, I'd be up to listening to that too, to be fair. And um, so will the music be launched on like Spotify or where, how, how do people access it? It will, it will be on Spotify, Amazon music, all of them, as far as I know, um, it's being digitally distributed to all of those platforms, which is kind of terrifying.

But I'm recording under the name Eleanor Else, not my name. A little bit of a mask there. Fair enough. So don't tell anyone. I won't. Mum's the word. Mum's the word.  Thanks, Ellie. It's been really great speaking with you. Oh, thank you for having me. It's been lovely speaking with you too. And good luck with the launch of the single and the album.

Thank you.  I really appreciate you listening to this episode with Ellie. Hope you enjoyed it. For more information about Ellie, including her social media handles, check out the episode notes. I'd really appreciate it if you could also rate and review the podcast in the podcast apps. In the next episode, I have a really interesting conversation with Marilyn Fontaine, who is an East London mixed media artist who creates magical, intense, and witty narratives with her mystical overtones.

I look forward to you joining me in the next episode