S3, E8 Hayley Gullen

Hayley Gullen is a writer and cartoonist who is writing about her experience being treated with breast cancer as a graphic novel. A graphic novel is a long-form work of sequential art. The episode was recorded on 7 September 2023. 

Insta: @hayleygullen

Podcast details:
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Transcript

0:16

this episode of Artist Tales, the podcast that features and celebrates artists from different walks of life. I'm Heather Martin and I'm speaking with Hayley Gullen who is a London-based writer and cartoonist who is also a cancer survivor. We met through Quakers. Welcome Hayley. Thank you, Heather. So tell me a bit about yourself in terms of your writing and how you got started. Well, I have... always been, well I say I've always been a writer, that's not necessarily true. I think I really got into writing in my early 20s after uni. I studied at Cambridge which was an amazing place to be, but I didn't find it very creatively nurturing. There's just, it's such a high pressure and environment that I really discovered that side of myself a few years later after I was out and... living my own life a bit more. So my dad is a writer, he writes science fiction and fantasy. He's recently had a few stories published, so he's doing very well. And so I grew up around someone who was always writing and I think I, and I've always loved reading, so I've gained a, that's where it sort of came from originally I think. I started writing, so I've written five novels. I would describe them as commercial fiction, focused on women. So the sort of cynical genre for that would be a chick lit, but I think that like it's fiction about women, which I think anyone could read, but women tend to be the main readers of fiction. I think there's a lot of interesting stories to tell about women that haven't been told. And I was trying to find my voice and tell some of those stories. I submitted all of those novels to agents and my more recent ones, I got some good feedback. I got a full manuscript request. but I never got an agent, I never got a publishing deal. So that was where I was. And I was more recent, something I should add as well, is a couple of years ago, I started writing screenplays and was getting really, I was really excited by that. It's just a new challenge. I was getting a bit tired, I think, of writing novels and looking for a new challenge. And the constraints of screenwriting forced me to be creative in a really interesting way. So I was really enjoying all of that. And then I got cancer. So I was obviously dealing with a lot. I was diagnosed in May, 2022 with breast cancer. I was 37. So in April, I found a lump in my breast and I went to the GP, sort of assuming it wouldn't be anything serious, but doing the sensible thing. Because as all women know, it's good to get these things checked out as soon as you can. I was referred to the hospital and there I was diagnosed and it hadn't spread. It was in a lymph node but it hadn't gone metastatic. So I had to go through eight rounds of chemo, a lumpectomy surgery, radiotherapy and now I'm still having various drugs and I'm in the menopause now aged 38 and having other side effects too. So... What's happened to me has been absolutely cataclysmic and it's changed. I wouldn't say, I mean, it has changed me and it hasn't because I'm still the same person, but I feel like it's put me in touch with a slightly different side of myself. And I've always had an interest, alongside my interest in reading books, I've always had an interest in graphic novels and something about everything I've been through. brought the cartooning side of me out. And now I'm working on a graphic memoir about my experiences. So that's really quite interesting. I really like your journey and how you explained it. But if I can take you, before we get on to your current project with the graphic novels, I guess the first question I have is around, if I take you back to when you were writing novels, what was the whole submission process like for you when you're trying to get novels or pieces of work published? So if you want to get a novel published, you've got two options. You can either self publish. So you probably need to put a fair bit of your own money behind it. If you want to do it properly, you should probably hire a professional editor, someone to design the cover. And then market, you need to market it as well. I didn't want to do all that. And to be quite honest, I wanted the validation of someone else. seeing my work and saying, yes, this is good enough to sell. And that's what I was aiming for. And I think my work is good enough. There's lots of people who are also good novelists who never get published. So that's, and I accept that. That is just part of the way the publishing world works. So the other option is to try and get a publishing deal. Generally authors can't approach publishers themselves. They have to do it through an agent, a literary agent. So you need to get an agent to represent you. That's also obviously highly competitive. The way you do that, normally, they expect you to have finished the novel, but they ask for a sample to be submitted to them. So that's usually the first three chapters, the first 10,000 words, something like that. And then a synopsis and a query letter, so a cover letter essentially, spelling out what the blurb is, why you think this is a good fit with the agent. maybe some other titles that it compares to. And you put all that together and submit it. Thankfully, these days it's usually by email, not post. And then you submit it and wait and hear. And often you hear nothing. Often you get a standard form rejection. If you're very lucky, you'll get a personal rejection with specific feedback. I did get a couple of those. If you're doing really well, you'll get a request to see the full manuscript. I've had that a couple of times when I got really excited, obviously, and then got rejected after that, which can happen often. But the dream is they request your full manuscripts, they're interested, you have a chat with them and they take you on. They then try and sell your book to a publisher. Then if successful, you'll get an advance. I don't know much about that side of things, but the advance money is not going to be huge. It will be a few grand, I think. And then you only get more money if you earn out your advance. So you don't have to pay back the advance if you don't sell sufficient copies to cover it, but you don't make any more money until you've earned out. So the publisher has made enough money back so that they can pay you more. And then hopefully the publisher will then market the book. But what I'm learning about this whole industry is you get to one stage, you get really excited and then you get rejected. So however far you get, rejection never goes away. Thankfully, my day job, I'm a fundraiser. If anyone's used to rejection, it's me. I'm always applying for funding. Like, it rolls off me, it really does. It does not bother me at all. So I'm just quite good at keeping going. How did you find it in terms of, you know, you did talk about getting a bit excited and then the rejections. You know, it sounds like a bit of a roller coaster of emotions. Yes, it can be. I think, well, mostly it's just silence. So there's the... There's the experience of writing the novel, which can be really exciting. You know, you think of your idea, you get really excited about it. You then settle down to the grind of writing it. Sometimes it can be really fun. Sometimes it can be difficult. So you go through all the emotions of creating a piece of art. Then you're packaging it up to flog to agents. And then you get, well, certainly I got excited sending the emails out. When I read an agent's bio and thought, oh, that's a really good fit with mine. And then you just hear nothing. way to deal with that, you just have to carry on. Learn from what you can learn from if you get any feedback, take it on. But, and I think I'm someone who is capable of doing that, but I think the hardest points for me were actually when I got those little spikes of positivity. So the full manuscript request, the nice email. I remember one time actually, I got a really nice email from an agent saying, this is really interesting. I don't think it's quite X and Y. If you were to... change it a bit, I might reconsider it and I thought oh wow fantastic I will rewrite it and resubmit it to her, this is really exciting and I rewrote it and actually I'd just had my daughter so I was rewriting it while breastfeeding at 3 in the morning because it was something to do so I didn't mind. Resubmitted it, radio silence, absolutely nothing. My internet research later identified that she'd actually stopped being an agent and just changed jobs so... Fair play, like she had her own stuff going on. It's just one of those things, but that was annoying. But I also don't think it was wasted work because all writing is, no writing I've ever done is wasted because I get better with every hour of work I put into it. Every page I write, I'm getting better all the time. So I don't begrudge that. The book was better as a result of her feedback. So that was really valuable. And I'm lucky to have had the input of an expert at that time. But yeah, it can be a... It's a grind, it just is. You have to have your faith in yourself and you have to enjoy the work enough to make that worth it. Because if you don't enjoy it, it's why you're even doing it. So if you don't enjoy the work, this will beat you down. So you have to have interior spark that keeps you going. Now, the other thing I wanted to touch on is you mentioned that you started writing screenplays. So tell me a bit more about that. Yes, so I think it was after the pandemic, I had... got to this place where I'd written five novels, had some encouraging noises from agents, but hadn't really got anywhere in terms of a book deal or an agent. And I didn't really have an idea for my next novel. And I started thinking about trying something a bit different. And I liked the idea of trying my hand at a screenplay. And so I bought a book by, there's certain books written by experts in the industry. I bought one. that takes you through step by step how to write one. And I didn't have an idea for a story, but I thought why don't I adapt one of my novels into a screenplay? So that seemed like a good place, as good a place to start as any. The really interesting thing about writing a screenplay is that you are bound by the structure so tightly. So a good film, I personally think a good film shouldn't be more than 90, 100 minutes. Obviously films these days can be two, two and a half hours. but you get roughly a page a minute. You get very little space on the page because the way the page is laid out, it's all in the center. It's got very thick margins, it's in the center. It's obviously mainly dialogue. It's just a very different experience. And so I had a go at adapting one of my books to a film screenplay. Now there's a website called The Blacklist where you can pay a small fee to have an expert review your screenplay, give you a rating out of 10 and if you get really high ratings on that website you have a good chance of the script being picked up by a production company. So it seemed like a different route into writing that almost seemed fairer in some ways because Obviously no judge can ever be completely objective when it comes to art, but it seemed like they had a reasonably objective system. So I thought this is a good way to get some feedback quickly. I'll give it a go. So I submitted my play for feedback and I got three out of ten, which was a bit rubbish, but I had that little sting of, oh, that's a bit rubbish, isn't it? Then I thought actually the feedback is useful. Fair enough, it's my first go. I didn't expect to be brilliant on my first go. So I tried again. I wrote another screenplay and I came up with a story, an original story for this one. So it wasn't a story I'd written before. I thought it was quite original and quite good. I wrote it, really enjoyed the process of writing it, submitted it and got seven out of 10. So I feel that I was able to take on the feedback and apply it and... I think if I, the feedback I got for that one, when I have the time to sit down and actually rewrite it, I can make it even better. And I think I know how to do that now. And that was a very validating experience. It's like, okay, I can do this. I didn't, I made some mistakes first time, but that was my first go. I should try this again sometime. I clearly can do this. So that was really exciting place to get to. And so you had been doing this for, I guess, a couple, two, three years. So then the... cancer come or sort of what stopped it? So why didn't you sort of explore it more? Trying to remember in the exact timeframe for all this but I think yeah it was about then that I was diagnosed and then so I was going through chemo last summer and one of the coping mechanisms I developed I actually wrote a TV sitcom pilot about being a cancer patient so I was going to all my appointments and a lot was funny and absurd. and I thought this should be a sitcom. So I wrote a 30 minute episode that had some good jokes in it, I think. And I submitted it to the BBC's open call for scripts. I got rejected, but nevermind. And I think I haven't looked at it again recently. I think it had some strengths, but looking back, I was using the writing of that as a way of coping with what I was going through. I don't feel I had fully processed the emotions of that experience enough to make the art that I needed to make that wasn't, I don't feel what I wrote was emotionally true enough to be right. I wasn't, I just wasn't in the position to do that then. I think I am now. Is it something that you might consider doing again or are you, because I know you moved then into doing graphic novels, you know, certainly as you said, to explore your experiences and process that being diagnosed of cancer and having cancer going through that process of you know the treatment and stuff or do you think you'll focus more now on the graphic novels? What I've learnt about writing TV shows is that you write the pilot and then you try and get it picked up from that and you don't write any more until you've had it picked up because that would be a waste of a huge job and the great thing about doing my own graphic novel is that it's really immediate. I've got so much I want to say. and I can do that all now, I can do it immediately. I don't have to wait for a production company. I don't have to wait for them to get funding or wrangle with Amazon or Netflix or whoever it is. I can just do it all myself. And cartoons are so immediate and you can't do this with novels either. I can share bits on Instagram and get people's attention and help people and move people immediately. I don't need to wait for anyone else to... do to make decisions, I can do it straight away. So that is one of the reasons why I'm focusing on graphic novels now. But I also think, again, lots of people want to write scripts. There's a lot of competition. I think, quite frankly, I found a gap in the market. I'm able to write, I'm able to draw, and I've had an experience that lots of people have had, but they can't necessarily write and draw and translate those experiences in the same way. So when I... was going through my treatment, I was looking around for books and graphic novels that do what I'm doing now, which is something that's funny and accessible and emotionally true. And there's nothing quite right, at least there's nothing that quite meets that brief. So I just thought this needs to exist, I want to do it, this is what I should be doing. So it sounds like your motivation is you've gone through this, you have a way or vehicle to express yourself and also I know you've said to me privately. that it helps you kind of process what you've been through and make sense of it. But it sounds like it's also something you can share and people can engage with and identify with. Yes, and I should talk as well about how the initial spark for where this project came from. So I hadn't drawn a cartoon since I got married when I drew cartoons for the wedding invitations, which was 2016, and maybe a couple of drawings of Paw Patrol for my daughter. I hadn't done any drawing at all. Going into the NHS cancer treatment system, it's very personalised in some ways, but very dehumanising in others. I was always looking for ways to express myself because I felt reduced to numbers. My diagnosis, my weight, my height, my blood contents, whatever it was, I just found it very frustrating. that I was being seen as a patient by very kind, conscientious people, absolutely. But their job was to see me as a patient and make me better as a patient. And I was just interior, inside me, I was always just wanting to scream out, but I'm a person, I want you to know things about me. And they didn't have time to know things about me often, which is fair enough, but it was still very frustrating. But then my surgeon, who comes across as very serious, not an easy person to know, I would say. very kind but very serious and aloof. I heard from my nurse that he was going on paternity leave. And so I was being told this because my appointment with him was going to be delayed. And I thought I just had the idea to draw him a card. And I drew a card of him about to operate on me. And he's saying scalpel and his baby is passing him a scalpel. So it was quite a funny card. And I didn't know how he'd react to it. But I went into that appointment. and I gave him the card and he looked so genuinely touched. It was really sweet, but he didn't open it in front of me. So I didn't know how he reacted when he actually saw it. But my nurse later told me that he loved it. And then he wrote in my medical notes that she thought it was a delightful card. So that was really sweet. So that whole experience made me think, oh, I found a way to express myself. Now he knows that I see the funny side in some of this. Now he knows that I can draw and I have a sense of humor. I found that very satisfying and it just made me think I can use my drawings in a way that can express myself to other people and maybe help other people by reflecting something of their experience as well. And you made the point earlier about how I find something about how I might find a release in expressing myself in this way. I want to push back on, I think there's a narrative that art... made under trauma is always cathartic. I don't think that's necessarily true. I compare this to that sitcom episode I wrote. I think the process of writing that, I was processing my feelings through writing that and I don't think it was as good as it could be. I then had therapy as part of my cancer treatment in which I processed my emotions and now I'm working on the graphic novel. I feel the processing has mainly been done outside of this piece of art and the drive for doing this is less about catharsis or anything like that, and more about telling a story that I feel compelled to tell in a way that will help other people. And not to say that there aren't some elements of catharsis in it, but it can also bring up difficult emotions. So the process of doing it can be challenging at times, but I want to dig into those difficult emotions because I think that will make it a better piece of work. And it sounds like it's giving you a platform to talk about very difficult things, whether it's the emotions or whether... it's serious illness, whether it's going through certain experiences, like you said, to some degree, you felt a bit dehumanized, although people were really trying to help you. And I'm just thinking there are things in society we don't talk about, you know, whether it's mental health, whether it's health, your physical health, and that sort of thing. So I'm just thinking you're feeling able and finding a way to talk about these things, but I'm also conscious of how are people reacting to that? What's the response so far? It's been really positive. So I have shared, so I shared that card with my surgeon. I also did a Christmas card. That was a little comic strip of my experience. I gave you one, didn't I? You did. And that was really after I made that card, I then started thinking, oh no, I need to do a graphic novel, don't I? Everyone loved that card so much and I gave it to my medical team as well. I loved it. I spoke to my nurse a few months ago and she said that it was still pinned on the wall in the nurse's office, which I thought was very lovely. I have shared some pages with my medical team as well from the graphic novel and they really like it. And my oncologist said she's never seen anything of this nature before, like no project like this. I was worried about how my surgeon would. react to it all because I am changing the names of everyone in the novel, but they are based on the people who treated me. The key characters are, but I've been told that he really likes it, which is nice. So when I had the idea to start this project, I then sought out a mentor. So there's a group called Latest Dude Comics that runs a mentoring program. So you can pay a small amount of money to have four sessions with a published graphic novelist. So she gave me some really, really valuable advice to help. put me on the right track to start with, which was really valuable. I think she really liked the project as well and could see that it had a lot of potential. She suggested that I get on social media. I was a bit resistant to this because a few years ago I went off all social media because I found it, all the bad things on social media that we all know about, I found them. I just didn't see any good reason to stay on it. So I went off it all, but I joined Instagram and that has been really, really good for me. Actually. I being followed by lots of cancer patients who tell me that my work really reflects their own experiences, that it's needed. It's been really, really positive. I've had some medical professionals follow me who really like it as well and I've got involved in the cartoonist community and I went to my first comic fair recently and it was really fantastic and I hope to have my own table there next year. So it's been really, really positive reception. I put in some pages for a prize for new graphic novels, the Caliburn Prize, and I got shortlisted. So that again was really fantastic validation that I'm doing something that other people think is good. And I think it's quite notable and quite dizzying in a way that I ground away at writing novels for years and years, didn't really get anywhere. I started this graphic novel in January and I've already had an award nomination. I think this is what I should be doing. I think the universe is telling me something. So that's, it's really exciting. It really is. Yeah. And it sounds like it's giving you a bit of a spark. Absolutely. It has yet. And maybe it is. I still have two more infusions at the hospital and one more appointment with my oncologist. And after that, after November, I won't have anything until my mammogram next year. So. having had all these hospital appointments, they're all going to drop away and there'll be nothing. And now I've got this project to propel me into wherever it takes me. I think from what I hear, a lot of women feel bereft after that support all sort of falls away and they're just left being like, well, what now? Well, for me, what now? I've got a lot to be working on. So that's really exciting. And where do you think the graphic novels may take you or may evolve to? Or is it something that you haven't really thought of past maybe the next few months? Well, I'm hoping to get a book deal. That's my dream. I just have a feeling that will happen with this project. I think this project just feels different to anything I've done before. And I think I will get published. I said to myself when I started it, if I can't get a publisher, I will self-publish this because I just want to get my story out there because I think people will benefit from it so much. I don't think I'll need to do that. I think I will get a publisher. I think the reception I've had on social media already is so positive that I think it will happen. And that's not to say I'm not resting on my laurels. There's a lot that needs to happen to make that come true. But I'm hoping to get published. And I am hoping with my big dream hat on to become a full-time cartoonist. That's quite a big dream. It might not be possible. Luckily, I work freelance. And I like what I do freelance, and so I can do a bit of freelance and a bit of comics and make it all work that way. My comic work is not earning me any money whatsoever right now, but if I do get opportunities, I'll be able to shift my schedule and make it work. And then I'll probably do more graphic novels. I think this is me now. I think I've found my niche. I do have a vague, ridiculous idea for my next graphic novel, and I'll just be open to other opportunities and possibilities as they arise, I think. It sounds really exciting what you're working on, and it sounds like it's really giving you a lot of energy. We've talked about your evolution from writing novels to getting into writing plays, and then moving into graphic novels. More broadly, what are your influences? I mean, you've touched on things like your health and having cancer, but I'm just thinking, would there be other things that have influenced you? So I think I came to the graphic novel idea. having read other graphic novels and really, some of them really resonating with me. So there's a graphic novel creator called Joe Sacco. He is a reporter really, and he goes to places like the Middle East, affected by war, and writes about the people there, but does it as a graphic novel. So he did a very famous one called Palestine. He's done one about Gaza. I've read a few of them and they are... What always struck me about them is that these are parts of the world I've never been to, probably never will. These are experiences I've never had. And I've read news articles about that kind of situation. You see things on TV. But the comic format, it just takes you into the life of people who live a completely different life to you and have had completely different experiences in a really powerful way that I don't think any other medium quite matches. So... Obviously what I've gone through with my cancer is not being an investigative reporter in the Middle East, but it is an experience that a lot of people haven't had and know very little about. And I can use that medium in that same way, I think, to really take you there and show you what it feels like and what it's like on the day to day. And also what's going on inside my head while I'm talking to different people. That's something you can do. in comics that is much harder to do in other mediums. I mean, some of the challenges you've talked about have been particularly around your health and sort of more previously, in trying to get your novels published. What sort of challenges are you facing with the graphic novel? Or are you facing any sort of challenges with writing graphic novels? I think I mentioned earlier, I'm addressing the toughest time in my whole entire life possibly. So I have to... take my mind back and my feelings back to those really difficult experiences in order to express them in a compelling way, which can be a difficult experience. And then some nights I go to bed and my head's buzzing with thoughts because of what I've just been working on and that can be quite challenging. Other challenges, I'd say that's the main one. I'm finding it's just sort of flowing out of me this project. As I go, I know exactly what I want to say. I'm developing my style as I go. I'm managing to achieve what I'm setting out to achieve, I think. So I just need to keep going. But I feel I have the wind in my sails. I feel able to keep going with this. And that's quite interesting because writing novels can be quite a drag sometimes. And often I'd have to force myself to do it. And I'm not finding any of that with this project. I'm just itching to get back to it every single day. So actually, a challenge with that is a... making sure I don't get RSI in my fingers with all the drawing I'm doing. I think I'm developing calluses on my fingers, which I think I'll wear as a point of pride. And I have not as yet approached agents. There are specific agents for graphic novels. I'm not as familiar with that process, but at the moment, this year, I'm focusing on entering competitions and building up my social media while I finish the graphic and then obviously continuing to work on it. I'm about halfway through now, so I'm working on it very quickly. So I'm hoping to finish the first draft by the spring and then we'll see what challenges lie ahead. I don't know. This is all quite an unknown for me because I haven't done this kind of project before. So yeah. But it sounds like there have been challenges, but it's also set here that you're quite excited about it as well. Absolutely. Yeah. So I guess that's a final question for me, you know, as we kind of close the chat, which I'm finding very interesting, I have to say. What would you, if you were to either advise your younger self or somebody else who would be interested in writing or graphic novels or that sort of thing, what sort of advice would you give them? I find that really hard to answer because I was writing novels, I got cancer, I'm now writing graphic novel and it's going really well. I don't think that's advice that many people can follow, but I could not have written any, I could not have worked... made a graphic novel like this before the experience I had. Obviously I hadn't had that experience, but I think it's made me more empathetic and I think empathy and expressing emotion are so, it's certainly crucial to the kind of art I want to make. And I think with my novels, looking back now with a bit of distance, I always struggle to evoke that sense, that feeling in the reader. I don't think I ever quite got there with evoking feeling. And what I'm, some of the feedback I'm getting now about my graphic novel is that I'm absolutely doing that. I'm making people feel things when they read it. I've had the feedback more than once that why my work is connecting with people is because it's so from the heart. I'm being so open about everything I felt and experienced and so honest that is what people connect with. So I think if you want to make, and there's obviously lots of different kinds of art, you don't have to take. that kind of route. But if you want to make art that I think has mass appeal and that connects with people's emotions, it's about being able to tap into that side of yourself and being able to bring it to the surface and be vulnerable and put as much as yourself into it as you possibly can. And that can bring its risks with it, absolutely. It's not for everyone, not everyone can feel able to do that, but that seems to be what's working for me right now. I feel able to do that. I'm quite a naturally open person anyway, but the experience of my illness has just exaggerated that even more. I think that is why I'm making the kind of art I'm making now. So yeah, that's the advice I'd give, I think. But again, I can see how that's not right for everyone. And what I'm hearing is, well, I guess two things. Firstly, the graphic novel sounds like it's a very personal experience, but also it sounds like it's a very authentic experience in terms of... As you said, you're open with the emotions, you're vulnerable, so it is that authenticity that perhaps people are engaging with? Yes, absolutely. And it is a memoir, I'm telling my own story, but I think it would also be possible to have that sense of authenticity in a fictional story as well. People have made this point to me that there's so much content out there on the internet, and there's so many books and TV shows and whatever. If there's a gap anywhere, it's in that... people being really authentic. There isn't enough of that kind of material out there, I think, and if anyone feels able to create it, then they should. So thank you, Hayley. It's been wonderful speaking with you, and I wish you all the best for your graphic novel and finishing it and whatever next you decide to write as a graphic novel, and also best of luck with your awards and getting published as well. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for listening to this episode with Hayley. is the final episode of the series. I hope you enjoyed listening to both the series and the episode. More information about Hayley, including her social media handle, is in the podcast notes. I'd really appreciate it if you would rate and review the podcast in the podcast apps. As I mentioned, this is the final episode of series 3. I'm really looking forward to working on series 4, and hope you join me in the next series.