S3, E7 Bunshri Chandaria

Bunshri Chandaria is a British-Indian contemporary photographer and an award-winning filmmaker who lives in London, England. Her projects have included awareness of cancer as well as Alzheimer's disease. The episode was recorded on 26 September 2023.

Website: www.bunshri.com
Insta: @bunshrichandaria

Podcast details:
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Website: www.artiststales.net
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Transcript

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to artist tales. The podcast thought features and celebrates artists from different walks of life. I'm your host Heather Martin and in this episode I'm speaking with Bunshri Chandaria. Bunshri is a British Indian contemporary photographer and an award-winning filmmaker who lives in London. Welcome Bunshri. Hi Heather, lovely to meet you. Thank you for having me. Good to meet you and thank you for agreeing to be on the podcast. I'm really looking forward to this chat. Okay. Me too. So tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got into photography and filmmaking. So I don't know if you know, but I'm of Indian origin and I was born in Kenya and I've lived in London since 1968. And how I got into filming was when I, I did my degree quite late in 2015 is when I graduated. So I just turned 60 then. And the reason for doing the degree so late was because I'd always wanted to do a degree, but I got married really early. So yeah, I guess I did it when the time was right. And one of my tutors, my personal tutor, she asked me, what is it that you really resist doing? And I said, on the course, I said it was making a film. So he said, right, that's what you're going to do. So I did an experimental film called Between and it won the audience award. So I was quite pleased about that. And when I did meet someone at a party a few years later, I was telling her about my projects that I did when I did the degree and I asked her if she'd seen the movie. And she said yes and she said, guess what, I'm doing a short movie called Itsy. Would you like to come on board? So I said yes. And I thought it would be a good experience to actually be out there in the real world and do something. But I just agreed to do some stills for the movie but I learned a lot on that. So that was in September, 2017. And in May, One of the ladies called Veronica McKenzie, she was, if I'm not mistaken, she was the assistant producer on Itsy. And she asked me if I'd like to be involved with her film. And she was doing a feature fiction called Nine Nights. It's about a wake Caribbean culture and about one of the twins who dies and what happens over the nine nights. So she wanted me to come on board to be the associate producer. She said, I've seen how you work and I really would like you to be on board. So I learned a lot from that as well. What drew you to doing films? I think I always like challenges and it's something which I thought I wanted to learn more about and I realised what big teamwork it is. I didn't really realise quite what was involved. Actually to backtrack. One of my friends who lives in Canada, in Toronto, yeah, so Bindu, who works, she'd just graduated, she'd done a master's in filming, and she was very keen on doing a movie about our Oshwal culture, our community, how the migration, how it came about, how they came from India to Kenya and then to London. And it sounded really very exciting, so I jumped at the chance and I went to India for a month in Gujarat. and we traveled with a huge team of camera people and so on from one place to another. And I just liked the idea of how a big team comes together and actually makes a film happen. So that's why I was drawn to filming. And you do photography as well, so tell me a little bit more about that. Photography, I like to kind of bring awareness about social issues that need to be addressed. So I don't know, you came to the exhibition, you said at St. Albans. I did. So you must have seen my multimedia installation, Silent Voice, and it's about my mother-in-law's Alzheimer's and I really wanted people to understand how I kind of gave her a voice because upon her diagnosis, people, it was during the COVID and people didn't know. Not many visitors came, so when people would phone, they didn't quite know what kind of conversations to have with her or how to react to what she was saying, so she went completely quiet, so I decided to give her a voice. And I thought I would actually do a book, and I called it Silent Voice. And the idea of doing the book was I wanted to break down the barrier between her and how the world saw her. I wanted people to understand how she perceived her new world and for them to be at ease with that. So I hope through Silent Voice, I've made visible the invisible condition of her Alzheimer's world. And the artist book takes the viewer into her world through my images. And I wrote footnotes because her spoken words, some of them were memories of her India and Kenya and London all in kind of one paragraph. So I wanted people to understand how her mind. worked. And I actually, I learned a lot from the project myself because upon her diagnosis people gave her flowers and one day I went upstairs because I could hear her sobbing and I said mom what's wrong? And she said this carer wants to throw away the flowers and I said but they've been here for a week and they can't last. So she said but I have to keep them. So I said oh you know what? I will freeze some, I'll dry some, and then I'll photograph them. And she kind of looked at me, so I thought, okay. I said, wait for a week. And after a week, I showed her the image of the frozen flower and the ice melting. And I thought she would say, oh, that's so beautiful. But instead, she started talking about the backdrop I'd used, the table I'd used. And it wasn't, the conversation wasn't relating about the table, but... the memories that had been brought about. So I got really excited by that. But the time constraints were quite heavy because we used to have carers coming in and out and she would have a routine about sleeping. She took a long time eating. So what I learned to do was kind of just listen to my intuition and just breathe and press the shutter. And I'd never worked like that before because if it came to doing a project when I was doing my degree, it was always like I would do so much research, I would go to the gallery, I would read so much stuff about the photographer who inspired me. But this time I just thought I'd listen to my heart and go with that. So in the afterword, in Silent Voice, I actually reveal what the light bulb moment is and how I managed to tap into her fractured memories. which were often triggered by her familiar objects. And Ramava would only speak of her transient memories during our one-to-one time together. These were like precious snatched moments and her memories would trigger mine. We both loved our conversations and interconnectedness. We giggled and laughed a lot. And I began to question whether one ever loses the essence of the person. I mean, this was my mother-in-law, but I'd lived with her. for over 43 years, longer than with my own mother. So I was really quite familiar with her. I thought I was familiar with her life, what I knew about it, but all these stories I'd heard for the first time. And I would look forward to our moments together so I could hear more and more. So during the COVID, I like to work towards a deadline. So I applied for a fellowship of the Royal Photographic Society to get me motivated to finish a project by a required deadline. And I tell you, this project has just been my solace. It's enabled me to unleash the deep sadness I felt about what was happening to mom, to Ramaba. And how did I, why would I kind of do photography when she was going through all of this? It's because in 2007, big realization had dawned on me that photography had been cathartic for me and a healing tool. I had breast cancer in 2006 and it was quite a shock. to say the least. And I was kind of concentrating on how to get well and using the right medication, doing the right exercises, answering phone calls and telling people that I was okay. But I said that, but I didn't really feel okay. So I said to my doctor friend, Sarah, I said, everyone's calling me out of love, but I just don't feel, I don't feel right. And she said, Banshee, turn to your photography, see what happens. But I said, I don't know if I can hold a camera, it's so heavy. She said, try. So when I picked up my camera, the most unusual thing happened. Rather than photographing in black and white, I was drawn to photographing color, and that in slow exposure because movement kind of signified life to me. Yeah, and I kind of began to get excited about that. So it sounds like a very cathartic tool for you, and it kind of... Would you say that it helps you process things, do you think? Yes, it does, because it's just like, I felt like after that happened, I felt like anything was possible. Someone had mentioned joining a support group, cancer support group, and I had pooped with the idea at the time. But when I did visit one, I met all these amazing Asian, South Asian ladies who were really embracing life. And I thought I would love to kind of do a book about this and show people how how not only I was embracing my life, but how these women were embracing their lives as well. So in partnership with Macmillan Cancer Support, I did 10,000 copies. I remember going in with my publisher and the lady saying, how many copies would you like? And he was going to say 200, and I said 10,000 copies. So what, I don't know why, but also living in this possibility that I can do anything right now, seeing that I've now been through cancer. So for about four years, I became an ambassador for some of the cancer charities, and I would go and give talks to the right venues like medical centers and support groups and Breast Cancer Haven and Linda Jackson Center, and we would distribute the books free of charge. And at the same time, I wanted to kind of also involve them into what I was feeling. So I got trained by Breast Cancer Care. and I did a workshop for women who were going through undergoing chemotherapy, and I would ask them to, I gave them one of those disposable cameras and I said, why don't you use this and make a visual diary about even your mini accomplishments during the day? So a lot of them came back and they were so excited and they said they found this new found confidence. Yeah. So it sounds like the people you're interacting with who I can't surmounted a very positive experience. And I'm just wondering if I go back to early, to the early conversation about your mother-in-law and the dementia, how did she react to your project? Or was she, do you think she was aware of your project of photographing and kind of documenting the Alzheimer's she had? I kind of, I would tell her, but. She didn't really understand, so I waited until the prototype of the book was made, and then I showed it to her, and she said to me that, what are we going to do with this? We have to exhibit this. She was very excited that she was in the book, and I said, yes, we'll find a very good center to do this. And when I told her that I'd been awarded a fellowship from the Royal Photographic Society, I think she didn't understand what it meant, but I said it means that they really want me to bring it out to as wide an audience as possible. I asked my mother-in-law, I said, how many books, mom, do you think we should do? And do you think we should do 50, 100? And I said 100 is a lot. And she said, no, 200. She said 400. And I just looked at her and with both giggled and I said, you know what? Okay, we'll do. 200 collectors edition and we'll do 200 standard edition. And I spoke to my publisher and I said, I would like some collectors edition books with what should we put in there? Maybe I would love to have, I don't know. Did you see the sari when you went to the exhibition in the cabinet? I did, yes. Because the sari meant a lot to me because this sari was embroidered by my mother when she was 16. and she took it to her marital home when she got married. And then she gave it to me a few years later, and I took it to my marital home as a dowry. So one of the weeks, it was my mother's 85th birthday, and my mother and my mother-in-law were good friends. So I said, so Ramabha, what are you going to write in mom's birthday card? And she couldn't think, and I showed her the sari. And I said, Mom, do you remember you wore this once last year? And she said, she started saying that in Gujarati, she said that she was my childhood friend and she gave me her daughter. So I said, write that in a card. And to me, that was really powerful because only because I'd lived with Ramabha for longer than with my own mother. And I don't know, I just kind of felt the love. The love which I, it was a newfound love which I hadn't even felt all those years we lived together. She was like opening up to me and normally, and she was really vulnerable. She was telling me all these stories which are in the book. I don't know if you've seen it, if you saw the book when you were there. I briefly saw it, yes. And I'm actually, I thought I would raise money for Alzheimer's research. So I decided to sell the collector's edition for 75 pounds and the standard for 25 pounds and give all the profits to Cancer Research. The director of Alzheimer's Research UK has written a foreword in the book as well. And it was very powerful having an exhibition with an installation amongst other people's works as well, which was from Hartfordshire Photo Forum in St. Albans. And I... I spoke to the curator there and I said I would really love to do an in-conversation event here because I feel that when someone looks at a book they would like to know about the journey, the process of how it came about. So I had an in-conversation event with my publisher there and I'd invited a lot of my friends and family and other people that I knew from other communities like the Royal Photographic Society, London Independent Photography. It was a sold out event which I was really pleased about because I was very nervous. I thought, is during the winter time, how many people will I have? St. Albans kind of seems out of London. But yeah, it was good. And the recording's on my website as well. Great. And I can link to them from the episode if people are interested in watching it. So thank you. So it sounds like people were really engaging, certainly with the installation you did around. your mother-in-law having Alzheimer's. And also, I'm just wondering about the other books, the book you did for cancer research and we had the 10,000 book run. So I was wondering, how did that, what was the reception for that? It was for Macmillan Cancer Support, cancer research. And the book was about, it photographed seven Asian women and in their environment where they felt safe and written stories about what they wanted to say about how they had healed and how they saw themselves in the next two or three years. And also the information in the book, there's an information in the book about all the centers that I'd used myself to heal like the Breast Cancer Haven, Cherry Lodge, Linda Jackson Center. because a lot of these therapies, alternative therapies and counseling and nutrition and so on was offered free of charge in those places at the time. And how was the book received? You know, were you able to sell quite a few? They were given out free of charge. Oh, sorry. Ms. McMillan had one with them, but yes, I think I must have about 25 books left now. Oh, wow. And so the people who received them, I presume probably... quite enjoyed them because obviously it's kind of bringing to life people's stories around their experiences. Yeah, I've taken some to Kenya as well, just like I did with The Silent Voice. I took them out to Kenya to see how the community, the Gujarati community, they would receive it. So I'd approached a lot of people in the community and met them as well and there it was received really well. But I was only there for 10 days so I didn't have enough time to do presentations local people who seek Swahili and so on. So I'm still looking into that. I hope that goes well when you're able to get back. Thank you. And then I had another exhibition in July at Berghaus in Hampstead with the Wisdom community. Wisdom is a part of Landmark Forum and there were five or six artists who had been exhibiting there since the last five years and one of them approached me to ask me to exhibit with them over there because I'd seen my work at St. Albans. And when was that? This was in July. July this year, 2023? Yes. But you know, I actually realized because what had happened, they asked me to exhibit with them in July, but I'd already kind of pre-booked. One of my nephews was getting married in Tuscany and I couldn't believe that I met one or two people who actually said that they were willing to give up their time and be the private view and hope to sell my books then. And one of the persons I met, Jonathan Taylor, he actually said that he'll put it up. And I thought, oh yeah, sure, people say things like that. But then what happened was that the days that we were going to go to Tuscany, we then decided to go a few days later because something came up in the family. and the day before I was supposed to put up my exhibition, Jonathan Taylor texted me and said, what time would you like me to come? And I thought, wow, in the photography world, there are such nice people around. I can't believe it. And yeah, I think it was received really well. It was a good exhibition. We had a lot of footfall and a lot of people come and visit and the private view. And I also had the music room to myself where I had a video running there as well about the book. So. Yeah, he was good. So Silent Voice is still going, but something else has come up in the family. So it's had to, I've had to stop for a while. The ebb and flow of life, isn't it? Yes. So I'd like to ask you about your influences. You know, are there particular artists or particular things that kind of influence you or have influenced you? Shall I go back to when I did my degree? Sure. I think the people who most influenced me were my... tutors, Silke Lang, who was my personal tutor, and then there was Shirley McLaughlin, and there was Eileen Perrier, who I met on the first day. And on the first day, we were all visiting a gallery, and she was kind of, we were crossing over the road, and she howled out my hand, and I said, Eileen, do you think I'm nine or something? And that kind of broke the ice, and she said, what do you think you'll, why have you registered for this course? And I said, It's, I don't know my, I don't know what came to my head, but the first thing that came to my head was that my father had his first heart attack when he was 57. And that was like 20 years ago and I still haven't gotten over it. So she said to me, you're going to start with that project. I said, no, it's too painful, I'm not. But guess what? I started with that project and I finished with that project as well. And the last one I called it redemption. I could finally let go, yeah. And also the age group was absolutely amazing from the range of 21 years to 74. And because I think I did my degree quite late, I think, and a lot of people did, everyone kept saying, oh, we're not doing any work, we're just having fun. But I think we kind of fed ideas of each other and everyone came up with such good projects. And we were told that it was one of their best years. and I was quite proud to tell my children that I've got a first when I'm 60. So it was quite a bonus. Congratulations. Yeah, I know that is really good. But yeah, and so from then, so my influences also were, I kind of began to see photography in a new way, visiting lots of galleries and things, and it was Sophie Cal. Who else was it? So later, Bill Viola, Marina Abramovic, who is getting an exhibition at the moment as well, I would, and Yo-I Kasuma, I would take snippets of these people and then kind of see where it would take me. I think that was really important. And for Silent Voice, I looked at not just photography, but I looked at Turner's work as well. There was the slave ship, and aesthetically, the image is beautiful until you kind of... look close up and read about it and it's about a lot of the slaves who were thrown overboard. So and I thought it kind of related to some of the work that I had done because I felt that my enigmatic images were actually quite beautiful to the eye but it related to such a devastating subject, Alzheimer's condition, the disease. I think I spoke to so many people and everyone knew of someone who had Alzheimer's, either in their family or in their friends. And like they say that I think it's 900,000 people who have Alzheimer's at the moment. And by 2015, they're looking at millions. Is that in the UK or is that worldwide? the condition will affect a million people, and the majority will have Alzheimer's. So, yeah, so I feel that, and I also felt that through my book, I really, I hope people kind of value people who are affected by Alzheimer's, even though sometimes they don't reply and they forget. I feel that just kind of touching them, and I got my mother-in-law to write a journal, and I think I'm always gonna value that. Some days she would write a line, some days she would write a page, and she was just so proud of what she wrote. Yeah. Yeah, it is a very cruel disease, you know, dementia and Alzheimer's. I mean, I know Alzheimer's is dementia, but that when, you know, you have someone who disappears in one way, their mind goes, but they're still there in body. Yes. It's just really quite, quite tough. I know some, one of the days, I think the first time she told me I was taking her back, she said, Can you see that dog up on that tree? And I kind of looked at her and I said, do you think that's Seba? That was a dog who died a few years ago, or do you think it's Bailey next door? And then there would be other times when my mother would call and she would say congratulations. And I thought, why is she congratulating her? And she said, for coming second in your bridge. And I just mentioned it to her in the morning. So it was weird. It was like a roller coaster. The memory would kind of come and go. And it was just like when I had my book in the Glass case at St Albans, one of the critics from Art Muse had written about how it was like an accordion, pretty much touching on how memories come and go. And I think it's very much like that. So, yeah. So yeah, it is. That's very interesting. And yeah, it's given me a new perspective on looking at memory. My next question is around any challenges. I mean, certainly a lot of the subject matter you've touched on is, you know, on dementia, you've had breast cancer, you know, you've taken pictures around that, your father's heart attack. So it's quite serious subject matter. So would that be one of the challenges or are there other things that you'd find challenging, that you have find challenging? Well, at the moment, my husband's just had a heart attack about four weeks ago. I'm sorry. We luckily got him to the hospital in time, so he's had a stent put in one of his arteries. But it's photography again, which has kind of kept me going. When you asked me to do this podcast, at first I thought I'll ask Heather if I can do it two weeks later. And I said, no, I think it's going to get me in that mindset where it's like a healing thing for me as well. And it's nice for my husband to see. me happier so I can kind of give that out to him as well. I can be a better support for him as well. But one of the challenges which never leaves me is even though I've kind of sold out of the 200, I've sold 150 of each of the books, I still find that to build up confidence and courage to kind of ongoingly contact people, to inspire them about the subject, it's like, okay. Maybe I won't do it today, maybe I'll do it next week. But one of my dreams is actually to approach Photographers Gallery because of the subject, and then also to approach other communities in London, like there's even within the Asian communities, there are different communities like the Navnath community, the Swami Narayan, the Oshwal community. So I need to speak to the right people. And also one of my biggest dream is to do a residency. to apply for one where I can have time without any distractions to contemplate what to do next. Maybe something really uplifting, a kind of good ideas. So yeah, you've quite nicely moved into some things you want to do in future. So it sounds like you have some aspirations that you're working towards or hoping for in the future. Yes, most definitely. Well, there's so much around. I'm kind of... more driven towards abstract work right now. And so let me see where it takes me. There are so many exhibitions which I want to visit as well at the moment. There's Marina Abramovic, there's something happening at Somerset House, Diva and so on. So I always feel that whenever I visit an exhibition, I get new ideas. Last week I visited... the Design Museum where they had the Upbeat Sari exhibition. And when I did my associateship many years ago, I was actually drawn to finding out more about my roots. I'd visited India two or three times. And I, rather than depicting the poverty of India, I wanted to show the beauty and the dignity of the people there. So that's what I did. But when I kind of look back, I started photography many years ago, maybe more than 30 years ago, when my husband bought me a manual camera, Nikon FM2, and I had no idea how to handle a camera, so I went to a local photography class and then after that there was no looking back. I just loved it. I did City and Guilds at Hadfield University, a two-year course, and that's when I kind of began to work, do project-related work and working on themed projects. So that was good. And from that I got the license ship, which I then I want the associate ship. But more than qualifications now, I think I kind of want to, I want to do something uplifting, but I'm also kind of pulled in one direction to do something more about mental health, because it affects so many people and I know so many people who... who don't like talking about it, and I would like to kind of break the stigma around it through art. So I don't know where it will take, where the work will take me. Yeah, it sounds like you have a lot of possibilities, and certainly mental health is, there's still a lot of stigma around it. There's still, you know, there are conversations that are starting, but it seems like still, there's still a lot of stigma around talking about it. Yes, but I don't know, I love to meditate a lot. And after my breast cancer, I'd gone to Vipassana for 10 days, where you go into 10 days of silence in Hereford. And it was during that time when I thought of doing the book Embracing Life After Cancer. So, I don't know, let me see. I think a quiet place or nature or somewhere. Yeah, something life always has a way of kind of presenting new things. just like you asked me to do the podcast. It does, yeah. And I think just listening to you now, the book that you've just mentioned about getting through cancer, yes, cancer is quite serious, but that in itself is a positive book. You've made it through, you're able to talk about it. So I guess even in a very difficult subject, there's that positive side to it. Yeah, well, I kind of, I think I kind of pushed the boundaries that I used to have and the fears that I had. I did... a tandem skydive at the time from 12,000 feet. I used to be really scared of heights, but it was very liberating. And it was good to raise 15,000 pounds. I had a generous family and friends. I raised it within two weeks. And then as a child, I always wanted to do a catwalk. I mean, it sounds a bit silly to be saying that at my age now, but I was involved in a catwalk at... Grosvenor House for breast cancer care and we raised 350,000 pounds then. And I love Bollywood dancing so I took the opportunity of doing Bollywood dance workshop at David Lloyds, a leisure center, and we raised money for a local charity called Cherry Lodge. Yeah so I think anything and everything is possible but I also realize that I can't do things on my own. I need people. I need other artists, I need friends, I need people to collaborate with and for us to rub ideas of each other. So I'm always kind of looking at new material, looking at new work. And I think like that, the social media is a very good platform because people are always posting something different. It was also one of the podcasts that I watched. I can't remember who she was, but she did a project on Nigeria. And with her little video clips with the like multi exposure, I thought it was very powerful. Yeah. I mean, I think many artists are probably not dissimilar to you where they get influenced, they get ideas, they get influences from other artists and looking at other people's work. Yeah. And I think I'm constantly not just looking at photography, but paintings as well. It's just And I love performance art as well. I think in my degree, I kind of did performance art. That's why I'm kind of, I want to go and see Marina O'Gromer, which is new exhibition to see how she kind of, she's always producing new work. Going back to one of my inspirations was a South African, a white South African called William Kentridge, who was really angry about the inequality in Africa. He was anti-apartheid. And he shows his multimedia artwork touching on the unfairness of the South African regime. He shows this through his hand-drawn animated film. And I just loved his work so much because there was a reason behind his project. It brought awareness, hence Silent Voice bringing awareness about Alzheimer's. Yeah. So sorry, before you get on to Silent Voices, when was William active? So when did he do his artwork? He had done his artwork in the, I think he was born in 1955. So it must be in the 1990s. That's when he did his earlier. Yes. And in fact, there was an exhibition about him just after the COVID, so about two years ago. Yeah. So he was very familiar with apartheid and a lot of those policies. Yes. And I liked the fact that he would make films out of drawings, which he... did pencil drawings and he would also show his work in the films as where he would erase it out and then put it back in. So it was almost, he was like showing it like a process, which is what I really liked. And going back to one of my challenges, my biggest challenge is to kind of ongoingly inspire people to speak openly about Alzheimer's because in May I had gone to Kenya and I did a presentation there. And most people would be thinking, okay, so when people get old, they're bound to forget things. But when I showed them about my journey of how I started Silent Voice and how my mother-in-law saw her world, they kind of totally understood how it is that you never really lose the essence of the beautiful person under this devastating disease. And how... how important it is for them to be valued, to be loved and spent time with. And even though one thinks that they don't comprehend what you're saying at the time, they can still feel the love. It's not what you say, it's the feeling that you say it with. And I just really, really believe that this condition needs to be addressed. I've had a traumatic experience in my family very recently, but my relation to photography is what keeps me going. So Heather, that's why I'm here today doing the podcast with you, having a conversation with you. And I'm hoping that I can inspire many more communities in our cosmopolitan city to help me bring more exposure about silent voice. And the biggest thing is I need to build up confidence and courage to ongoingly contact people to help me raise money for Alzheimer's research through silent voice and to reserve a copy they can email me. and the details are also on my website. The details of your website and everything are in the podcast notes so people can access it there. That's great, Heather. It sounds like what you're trying to do in the Silent Voices project is to challenge people's perceptions of those who are suffering from Alzheimer's. Yes, absolutely. I want people to understand what their world is like and for them to be at ease with that because there are... when they can't remember and there are times they can't and it's their condition but I really feel that the way I managed to tap my mother-in-law's memories I feel that I never really lost the essence of the person it was hiding underneath that devastating disease and I keep saying devastating because that's how I saw it over the three years how she used to be and how this takes over but I think support from family and friends is very important. They also, I felt like to be touched and just sometimes and just to be with them, even though we don't say anything. It's the presence, it's the company. Yes, and the interconnected that I felt with my mother-in-law during our one-to-one time, I just cannot fathom how we never had it before. It was almost like when you hear the world Alzheimer's. You think you've got very little time and you kind of want to get to know the person. And I heard so many of her stories and I'm sure she had many more to tell. And yeah, I really miss her. Yeah. It's a very cruel disease, isn't it? Yes. So I'd like to thank you. It's been really lovely chatting with you and all the best in your future projects. Heather, thank you very much. It's been wonderful to speak to you as well. And... I can see the future as artists being very transparent and sharing their work with each other even more so than before. So looking forward to lots of new work as well. And thank you again. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode with Buntree. I hope you enjoyed listening to it. More information about Buntree, including her website and social media handles, are in the podcast notes. I'd really appreciate it. if you could rate and review the podcast in the podcast apps. In the next and final episode, I'm speaking with Hayley Gullin, who is a writer and cartoonist and is writing a graphic novel about her experiences of being treated for breast cancer. Here's a clip of her conversation. I'm addressing the toughest time in my whole entire life possibly. So I have to... take my mind back and my feelings back to those really difficult experiences in order to express them in a compelling way, which can be a difficult experience. And then some nights I go to bed and my head's buzzing with thoughts because of what I've just been working on and that can be quite challenging. I look forward to you joining me in the final episode of the series.