S3, E5 Andrew Matsubara (DJ K)

Andrew Matsubara is a DJ based in Ottawa Canada and is known as DJ K. His music label is Killa Records. He was involved with the revival of jungle in North America in the early 2000s and gigs internationally. The episode was recorded on 1 October 2023. 

Website: www.killarecords.com
Insta: @thirtyoneseconds
Facebook: DJ K + Killa Records

Podcast details:
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Transcript

0:17

Welcome listeners to Artist Tales, the podcast that features and celebrates artists from different walks of life. I'm your host, Heather Martin, and in this episode, I'm speaking with Andrew Matsubara, a DJ based in Ottawa, Canada. Andrew is known as DJ K, and he does gigs internationally. Welcome Andrew. Thank you. Nice to be here. Nice to see you again. Yes, it's really good to have you and it's nice to see you again as well. So I have to say for the listeners that Andrew and I used to go to elementary school many, many years ago. Actually, not that long ago because we were timeless, but you know. Yeah, it was a long time ago. And then I saw you again. We just happened to meet in London when I was passing through a couple of years ago. It was last year actually, wasn't it? It was, yeah, in 2022. Gosh, time flies. So tell me a little bit more about how you got into DJing. Oh, wow. That's an open ended question. I started. being interested in music from my childhood. And back then there wasn't really electronic music. I mean, there was, but it wasn't accessible. You couldn't just make it yourself at home easily. So I would go to the music room at school and I would always just sneak in there and play the drums or learn how to play the piano there and stuff. And I'd always get kicked out by the teachers because I never actually took a music course. I was always just kind of hanging around in the music room. And as the technology progressed and there was... electronic sequencers in the music rooms, then I would sneak in there and learn how to sequence and then as electronic, as the tools got more accessible, so there was trackers in DOS based systems PCs, I was able to learn how to make electronic music there and it kind of mimicked what was happening in dance music at the time, like in the mid 90s. There was a lot of simple electronic music that was coming out that was like dominated by electronic beats. So I was able to kind of mimic that. and learn how to do it, cut my teeth. And then by the end of the nineties, like it, I'd say from 95 to the end of the nineties, that was when I was really learning how to DJ because everybody said if you like that kind of music, you like to make it the thing to do is DJ, which is take two turntables and a mixer and mix records together. So it was kind of like a clash of two worlds. I was mixing and on the other side, I was making my music. I guess I could just continue the timeline here. So after that, so that was me DJing, learning how to do it. At the same time I was producing and then the technology again progressed to a point where you could take your own music and play it on CDs in clubs. And then that was kind of when I was able to put my own music into my sets more. And then eventually I started playing only my own music like by the beginning of the 2000s. And that was kind of like as my DJ career was really taking off throughout the 2000s, 2010s. So were you producing electronic work? Electronic music I should say. Yeah, so the music that I make is jungle. It's a sub genre of drum and bass and drum and bass itself is a sub genre of electronic music. Drum and bass is something like around 175 BPM these days. And so it's like a, it's double time of hip hop. If people are completely unfamiliar with this kind of music. Hip hop, everybody knows kind of slow beat, you bob your head to it. So double time that it becomes drum and bass. Jungle. and Riga Jungle is kind of like taking reggae influences and adding a bunch of sample drum patterns in very erratic ways, just kind of chopping and splicing the beats so that it doesn't follow one kind of pattern. It can just, the beats can be all over. And I think that's just kind of jungle was just a name that kind of stuck. So I kind of liked it because I started with the early technology of samplers and sequencers, and so I sampled the drums and I put it to some familiar. songs or bits of songs sort of like what fat boy slim was doing in the in the late 90s he just kind of like pasted stuff together from old records so i was kind of doing the same making remixes of songs that i always wanted remixed and so that's the music that i was making and it's still the music i'm making today exactly the same even though it's a bit outdated now you could say but i'm still doing the same thing and people still book me for playing jungle so it's mostly my music and then also i get music from other artists so over the years i've connected with other artists that were doing the same thing as me. And I play sort of their exclusive stuff that they made at home too. So you could say jungle is really a do-it-yourself. It's like a punk rock in the electronic world. So how big is that community in terms of jungle? Because it sounds like, as you said, it's kind of a bit old school now, if I can use that term. So it sounds like a bit of a niche market. It is. Yeah, it is niche. So for people that don't know anything about jungle, which I guess a lot of people listening to, Well, maybe if you're from the UK, you'll know because it comes from the UK. In the early 90s, this music that was electronic music, house music, they started to become more breakbeaty and they got faster and faster. So if you think of like the old prodigy songs, that was when Jungle was really starting where they take the drum beats and kind of rearrange it in whatever way with manic samples. And then as it got really fast, it became its own genre by the middle of the 90s. And as well, I don't know if that's a good description, but Is that a good enough description? Does that explain what jungle is? Would you understand that? I think so. Well, I remember the prodigy from the 90s, so I think probably a lot of people would. Yeah, so these drum beats just got to the point where it got to 175 bpm, and then it became drum and bass at a certain point, because the producers started using electronic drums and just sequencing their own way of making music electronically without doing the samples and the drum patterns and cutting them up, and it became more formulaic and more straightforward. And that's like the big drum and bass stages you see now, I would say, that's like its own genre almost. So mine is very niche in the fact that, like I said, that I connect with other producers and other DJs. And so we're kind of like a little family. I couldn't say how big the community is because it seems to grow in cities across the world where there's somebody who loves jungle and they do their homework and they convince all of their friends. that jungle's amazing and they start with small events playing jungle and they get the people out, they have a great time and that community blossoms and these pockets are all over the world. It's kind of unpredictable sometimes where it is in the middle of Japan or you know, you never know where somebody has that passion for it and like in Kiev, for example, when I first went there 2008, it was like a massive, like not like a shrine to me, but it's like everybody knew all my songs and this one guy who had followed me. So my record label, I called it Killa Records, and his DJ name was Stepkilla, and he said, like, I'm like your stepson. And everybody knew him in Kiev as like the jungle, the jungle, like, I don't know, the prodigy, like everybody knew him. And he played all my songs. And so when I went there, he'd set the stage for me to be a superstar almost in jungle there. And that was completely unexpected. So it's these pockets like that around the world where you'll find thousands of people. And then there's some other pockets where there's only like tens of people, everybody, even if it's like five people or thousands of people, the love is still the same. It's like a very nerdy niche music where everybody knows every song and they keep telling you like, oh, I remember in that podcast you played that song or you made this remix of something. Can you please send it to me? I love it. It's very nerdy and like I said, do it yourself. And I'm just wondering how much like the internet and streaming and new technologies help in terms of getting your music out. Yeah, well the streaming is, in my opinion, streaming for the most part is quite mainstream, whereas Jungle is very underground. So in the time of Napster, there was a lot of torrenting happening starting, and those kind of channels were the ones where everybody who was into Jungle connected. There was a program, and it still exists, called Soulseek, and there was different rooms in there where people could discuss. certain labels or certain kinds of music that they like or new producers. And that was really exclusive, but it was really, everyone was really proud of it. And so everybody took pride in their collections. They shared, they researched. And I would say that still kind of happens now across the internet. But back then, like at the beginning of the 2000s, it was really key moment where everybody came together and said, I like this music. So this is kind of like more interesting to me maybe than other people. But Like I said, in the middle of the 90s, jungle really peaked. This is when it was, they started to play it on the radio and it was a genre on its own. But then, like I said, by the end of the 90s, it turned into drum and bass, more formulaic, more electronic. It wasn't this reggae and organic sounds of sampling different drums, drum patterns that already existed or records. So... What happened is a lot of us were silent just at home saying, where did that music go? We love that music. And then when we had a chance to connect again at the beginning of this internet, like really when the internet became more a better tool for people to connect, we all came together and we all started making music. And then we felt like it was okay to do so. So we all took our own money and we pressed records and we sent it out across the world to the other people who wanted the records. And as we were DJing, we were able to play those records out. And that's when it really became a community. And I'd say from 2000 onwards, That became what we're doing right now. It's the same community. And even when I go out to shows now, as you said, it's old school. It's mostly older people like me who remember the great times back then. And they still want to go out and do another party with the same old. They want to hear the old ones, but they want to hear new stuff that sounds like that too. So it sounds like it's still, you know, it's still fairly underground, but I'm just kind of curious how, how you keep in touch. Is there still an element of like online chat rooms online? you know, connections, that sort of thing. Because obviously many people don't live in the same place. I mean, nevermind city, you know, you think country, continent. Yeah, we're spread out. Yeah. I would say just because the tools like Facebook and Instagram and all of these social media giants kind of took over. So there's no little tiny, we don't do those rooms in Soulseek anymore. At least I don't. So it's more of a, and it used to be also with Messenger, we used to talk to each other or just email each other. So now I'd say it's more like the social media tools, which unfortunately now seems to be falling apart a bit. A lot of people have quit Facebook, so trying to keep in touch with people is harder. But for example, like this summer, a Polish promoter DJ, he just, of course, he still had my email from ages ago. Luckily the Gmail's been around for a while. And so he just wrote me asking if I would come out there and now. he's doing this, he has an organic farm and everything and he said come play for a festival on our farm and it was great to be able to keep in touch there because he's not on Facebook or anything like that. So the email luckily is still stuck around. I think WhatsApp kind of works really well too because a lot of people, everybody's got a phone number and so a lot of people will just say message me there, not on social media but it's like a direct message. So a lot of, it's different but I guess it's the same. It's not like... before where it felt like the Wild West, like it's like anything was possible, it felt like. Now people kind of found their position where they want to be, what social media do I want to use? And then you got to seek them out there. So it's kind of more spread out now, but it's more established. So it sounds like you're still in some ways keeping those connections. Yeah, so everything is connections, sure. Yeah. It's the only way to be able to do this. So how did you get noticed when you first started your career? How did you get noticed as a DJ and a producer? I'd like to start from the very beginning because when I was a kid, I definitely got noticed by the teachers, like I said, and my parents were angry at me all the time because all I wanted to do was music and that was considered a waste of time to them. And so if I went out to the park with my friends and as a teenager, I was the one that brought a radio and I was always playing the songs I wanted to play or things that I... learn how to make, I would say, look, I made this song. And I was the annoying one that was always pushing that on people. So I always knew I had some sort of bug in me, the spark where I had to do music. And so people definitely noticed that there's something weird with me, but I didn't get the kind of recognition that I want. Like I didn't get a feedback like, Oh, what you do is great. I want you to, I want to hear you do it. It was more just like, I couldn't stop doing it. And somewhere along the way, I was always annoying everybody, but I knew I just couldn't stop doing it. So that lasted from. all the way through the 90s. Like for example, when I went to boarding school, I became a music steward, which means you have the key to the music room. And so you can go in at any time. So I was literally there until the lights out time. And because I was there in my last year, there was no lights out time. So I was able to just make music until somebody from next door would kick me out. So I really was like obsessed. with making music, but I never got that feedback. But a lot of people were always like, wow, you know, like, it's obvious it makes you happy, keep doing it. So then when I was finishing high school, I like, that was the time where the technology had evolved to that I was able to get some software to learn how to make music at home. And I got pretty good at that. And all my friends were DJing and they would always say like, just grab some turntables, borrow some turntables and some records and just practice. I did. And every time they threw a rave from like 95 to 99, they would always invite me to play, say like, this guy, I know you're going to be a good DJ. You're just a natural. I was always able to mix the records without any problem and select the right songs for the right time. So then by the end of the 99, I already had, in 1999, I already had quite a good collection of records that I liked. In around this speed, drum and bass jungle stuff and they booked me they just said come and play open this room because we don't have any other DJs in Ottawa and it turned out that it was a sold it was oversold this rave and people had nowhere to go and so I opened up this room and it was like a frenzy everybody thought like oh my god who's this great DJ I've never heard of him before and it was just the right time where I had spent enough years honing my craft and collecting records and learning how to mix and it was like there was my opportunity. From that moment on, everybody in Ottawa on the local message boards was just like, this is the guy we wanted our party. I mean, I'm making it sound like really egoistic at this point, but it was more like to me anyway, that was when I finally heard the voices of people saying yes, and that was the message I was trying to send out since my childhood. And so from that... I started getting all these shows in Ottawa that became part of the community and I got to play at all the raves and as the technology evolved and I was able to play my own songs. Then I was able to send demos out to different labels and eventually a label in LA a couple years later, 2002, picked me up, released my records and then all the distribution of those records across the world, those people went nuts for me and said, oh my God, where is this guy? Like it was what I wanted to do all my life. Who is this guy making this music, this jungle that we've always wanted to hear? And then I started to release records with other people that were doing the same thing. And we had this jungle renaissance in the early 2000s. It was just like a dream come true because we thought jungle was dead when drum and bass took over around the 2000 hump. And we all took it back and it became ours in North America because it was really a UK thing back then. Everything was imported. And now the UK had gone on to a new sound, which they always do. They're always on the forefront of the new trends and the new nightlife stuff. And for us, we took it and we made it ours and it was a new version of it. It was louder. It was more technology based. So we got to put new kinds of bass samples into it and fuse that with the old organic sounds. And yeah, so I just got a big following then I started my own label and that's when it really blew up and From then on, it's always been the same. That people will reach out to me and say, like, you changed my life with this music, which is basically the goal of any artist, to hear one person say that. I think that happened for the first time in 2000. And I said, that's it, I could retire. That's all I wanted. And then when that happened, it just kept happening over and over. And now for like 20 years, it just still keeps happening. But of course, the parties are getting smaller. The people are getting older. And I would say that over the last... Decade for sure. Things have moved from community or a society of people who like to go out and share time together and experience together in a live atmosphere to people who'd rather stay home and have the selection of being able to hear whatever they want to, interact how they want to online. And then when they do go out, a lot of it is just... It's like I've got to go out once in a while, I've got to get some social media, or I've got to say I was there, I've got to see somebody face to face, but it's not the same thing like before where it was your lifeblood. You had to go out because you wanted to be part of the scene, you wanted to feel it, you wanted to see the people, you wanted to hear the music. That was enjoyable. I don't know if it's just because I'm getting older, but I feel like it's a lot harder to push people out. I know you interview lots of different kinds of artists, but as a DJ, we really rely on on nightlife, which is that time where people are supposed to be asleep, so after midnight until the sun comes up. And that's a certain kind of people and those kind of people, unfortunately, actually, I didn't mean to go into this direction, but unfortunately a lot of those people are kind of really heavily into drugs or some sort of chemical stimulation. And those people don't last too long, like a year or two, and then they kind of burn out or they move on, they grow up. And so right now, maybe there's just not a lot of people into that scene or the people that, like me, I never really got into drugs. And the people who are still inviting me out never really got into drugs. So I think we're kind of lucky, but maybe we're the minority. And now the other events like the big EDM stars, maybe all that crowd that wants to have the stimulation, the nightlife, they're going out to that simpler, louder music. It's different. I really went off on a tangent there. But all that to say that. The music has evolved and the newer generations followed it and the way of being, you know, like social media. If you want to do big stadium events, you want to get a nice photo, you want to throw a cake into the crowd, whatever the DJ is doing. But for us, the jungle, it's always just been a dark cellar with the best sound system you can find with a rumbling bass and just everybody meeting each other. It's our community coming together like we used to. We just don't have as much time anymore with kids and jobs. And how much, I mean, I think you've touched on a number of probably factors in age and as you grow older, life events or life takes over. But I'm wondering too, I guess two things. I'll ask the first question is, I'm just conscious, COVID is not that long ago, global pandemic wasn't all that long ago. And I've noticed on a personal level, my patterns have changed because they had to for two or three years. And I'm wondering how much that has had an impact on what you do. On the nightlife, on being a DJ, I mean. Yeah. It's getting really tiresome to say, but of course the pandemic has changed the way everybody lives, I would say, that the choices that they make, the way that they interact with other people, the way everybody lives. So in the DJ world, I think it made everybody think twice, but I don't think it's suffering now. I don't think that the... the lack of people at our events, at the jungle events, are anything to do with that. Because if you look at, for example, one of the biggest festivals that features jungle a lot, or drum and bass, is Bloom Town. And during the pandemic, so I played there, it's huge. I mean, it's a huge, huge festival somewhere in the UK. Please forgive me, I'm so bad at geography there. And I played there the last year before the pandemic, and there was a whole bunch of stages that played different kinds of jungle, like really like hard jungle, breakcore type of like mutant music. It's really interesting actually. And then they shut down the next year they had to cancel and the year after I believe they had to cancel too. And then they re-birthed, like they did a rebirth type of theme where they tried to go back to the roots and make it smaller and more about certain core kinds of stages that they wanted to do. Actually I'm not doing the festival justice at all. I don't know if I could explain as well, but I would say that there is a different, everything reprogrammed. There was a new... perspective. Everybody had a new perspective and a new way of doing things. So they didn't suffer. What I wanted to say with that is that now this year it's huge. I don't know the numbers, but I think it was just as big as ever. And also when I played last year in Fusion Festival, that was a festival just outside of Berlin. They're a lot like Burning Man and they still sold out and they still had, I think it was like 80 or over 80,000 people there. And... So I feel like it's in the right circles, in the right festivals, for the right events, for the right reasons, everyone's still going out. I don't think it's changed. My point about the society changing was more about the way that we consume music and the way we socialize now, that you could still go out to those events. I mean, festivals are festivals. People do it for the experience. But going out to nightclubs, the way it used to be 10 years ago. I was always able to play at nightclubs. Every night of the week when I was living in Germany, every night of the week there was a night, the hip hop night, the drama based night, the reggae night, the techno night and there would always be people there, guaranteed. But now I don't feel like it's like that. A lot of the places have closed because it's more one off events or festivals. People aren't going out for the sake of going out anymore, for the sake of being with people and to experience that anymore. I feel like they're just going out for these one off things. It's more just like... you have to really want, there's a good reason to go to it. It's not just like it was before, it's a lifestyle of going out to a restaurant. It's not like that anymore, I don't feel like. And would you say, or from your experience, would you say that that's across the board, no matter what the music style is? I think I'm too old to be the one to say that for sure, but I think it's true, I think across the board, that the nightlife is not the same. But if you think of it too, with the Spotify streaming and with the DJ equipment, just everywhere in everybody's house, that the mystique of DJing and the exclusivity of it, it's just kind of gone. So going to see a DJ just every night isn't worth it anymore. And I guess that kind of in some ways answers the other question I was going to ask around what you had mentioned initially when I asked my first question. I was going to say, you know, do you think it's cyclical or do you think things have evolved and it sounds like things have evolved, whereas you said it's more interesting going to the one-off events rather than a DJ night. Yeah, it used to be just part of our culture, like especially in the 2000s. Like if you go 20 years back, it was a, there was, there was an internet, but it's, it was different. There was a place and time for the message boards and there was still the essential, you have to go out every weekend or even on every Wednesday to this night because you have to see your friends. And it was. Maybe I was just younger, but I also think that the scene is different now because if I see the few nightclubs that still exist, the crowds going out there are different. For us, it was like a family and it was our only connection to other like-minded people. We really needed to be out in these clubs. We needed those places like the cafes were there and everything. And it's become, I don't know, more commercialized, more... Like there's, there used to be a lot of independent, I'm talking like Ottawa, but there used to be a lot of independent cafes and stuff. And those all just kind of disappeared and they're all big chains now. And I think it's the same kind of thing as in the club mentality, club scene, that there used to be a lot of people willing to put in the work to keep a club going. But now I think it's more like they have to have some sort of a real big motivation with big names or some sponsorship. I don't know how it works, but it just feels totally different than it used to be. You're familiar. bar or cafe you used to go to, pub you used to go to. And now when I see the clubs, it doesn't feel like home to me anymore. Also I'm older, but it doesn't feel like home like it used to. It was really essential to us before and now it seems more like for fun, people go out as a luxury, get some selfies. So what I'm hearing is there seems to be a shift from like the small, I guess more personable, more independent sort of venues to the big commercial. And it sounds like perhaps bringing in acts that they think this will bring in kind of maximized profits or maximized money really. Sure. Yeah. I think that people are a little bit lazy and trying to research new music too. And it's just fed to you. There's just too much music now. So whatever the biggest names are, are the ones that'll draw the crowds. And I'm just kind of still floating off of what happened a long time ago. You could say the buzz that still exists from there that they say, now you've really got to see jungle. You really got to see this guy. and those are the people that will come out to my events. And we have like an awesome time. Like it's still the same. It's just a bit smaller than it used to be. There was a time where everyone wanted to do it. I'd say in Europe, there was a time in 2009, 2008 to like 2014 where it was huge. What I was doing was huge. Actually, it's a really interesting thing. I could talk about this, that I was saying how in the 2000s in North America, we had our own thing. The UK had it in the 90s, but then we took it. I felt like, I don't want to upset anybody, but I... This is how I feel. I guess I'm kind of the authority because I'm a North American jungle producer. In 2000 we had our time and then it moved over to Europe and especially Eastern Europe because that's where I spent all my time. There was some pockets like Austria, like in Western Europe that I played in the UK lots of times and even Portugal and stuff and Spain but for the most part I was playing like I said in Ukraine and in Russia like a dozen times and it just was like a... it moved. It followed like this... the trend and so then all the producers there started making music and there was a whole bunch of Eastern European producers making jungle and I was gathering that and I was making friends and it was still the same in the end of the 2000s. And then I like, I literally I moved to Europe because of that. So in 2008, I went to Europe to play for the first time and I said, holy cow, like, okay, to bring it back a step, let's talk about how I got from Canada to Europe. So like I said. Always going back to this, early 2000s, North America was really big for me, everything blew up. I already established that. But then I would say in 2004, 2005, being in Ottawa, you lived in Ottawa. Ottawa is considered stereotypically a boring city. There is nothing that happens here. And especially starting around 2004, 2005, all of this community and clubs that I was talking about started closing down. People stopped going out. Everybody thought jungle was just because we were young. people grew up. Everybody got a government job because we're a government city. At one point it was almost all government jobs. Now you can get others, but still it's the main motivator of the economy here is definitely the government workers in Miami. So I got a government job, everybody I knew had a government job. And then that forced you to be more grown up and more officey. And the weekends going out became less useful for the rest of your work days. And so I got a little bit depressed. and people were kind of writing and stuff from Europe, but I couldn't believe it. Like, I didn't know what that was all about. And eventually I just got so depressed that I said, I'm going to take a chance and just go to Europe and see what it's like. And so I played a bunch of shows there. And that was when I realized that the huge explosion and enthusiasm and community that we had in the early 2000s here in North America, because like... I was also playing outside of Ottawa in North America. Moved to Europe, especially Eastern Europe. And I was just like blown away. And I thought, okay, I'm no longer depressed. I just have to move. I have to get the hell out of Ottawa. So I literally sold all my stuff and I gave away all my stuff. I carved a house, everything. It was gone. So I just left with a few bags and I moved at the end of that year to Germany. And for the next 10 years, I was living in Europe. and I just did gigs for the first couple of years. I just, all I was doing, for the first year for sure, all I was doing was playing, just traveling around playing because it was just huge and just reconnecting and having that inspiration and passion and connection with people. It was there, they could all speak English not as well, but it was the same love. In fact, I would say there's even more of a love. One thing about Europe that is completely different about North America and the reason why I love living there just personally as well as professionally as a DJ. is that there's value and respect put onto everything. So when you talk to somebody, they're looking at you, they believe what you say, they value it, they respect you, beautiful. But I find in North America, a lot of it is superficial. Somebody says something like, oh, you're great, I'm gonna, how about we do this again? It actually means I don't like you at all, we're not gonna meet again. So there's no respect, there's no value in what you're saying, but there's a facade that there is. And so it's a different kind of game. But in Europe, I always felt like it was authentic. And so for the music there, it felt even more so. And I felt like I would never go back. This is my life. I'm so glad I'm not working for the government anymore. I'm so glad I'm not in a boring city where everything was closed down and the music's long gone. It was so alive. I was so happy. And I had to get a work permit. I had to get a visa to stay there because I guess Canadians aren't really welcome in Europe without being able to contribute to the economy. So I had a full-time job there. So I was touring on the weekends. I was working and, um, uh, then I. had to learn German so I went to night school. There's a point where I was barely sleeping at all because I was doing nine hours of school, German school, per week. I was touring three days a week, working five of those days, sometimes in overtime, and that was some crazy years. Anyway, that's how I ended up in Europe and I did that for a long time and eventually I stayed in Germany for six years and it was great and amazing but then I met my wife who's Latvian. moved to Latvia for three years. And then when the kid, when our first son was born, it was time to decide, I didn't like being in Latvia too much because I found Eastern Europe. When you're really living there, East Germany was okay, former East Germany, but Eastern Europe has like this Soviet, this has nothing to do with being an artist at this point, but the Eastern Europe has a sort of Soviet pessimism to it. I think it's not pessimism, but I think the social... The socialist system was really based on not suffering, but it was based on everybody for everybody. And so I think there's a certain pride. This is the way it felt to me as a Westerner. There's a certain pride and a certain respect put into suffering and not being happy, not smiling. That's why in all the like, you rarely see Putin smiling. There's a certain respect in being serious. and I felt it like overbearing on me. Of course, not everything was like that there, but the older people or the generation and the percentage of the people that were like that was overbearing on me. So the end of my Europe story came to, ended up with me moving back to Ottawa of all places, because at this point with a family and wanting to kind of move on and I was quite happy. I accomplished everything I wanted as an artist. So now I can still go and play. In Europe, every summer I can go play there, or if there's a show here I can play here. But, and because they're smaller, it's more of these occasional things. I'm no longer that starting in Europe like I was in 2008 where it was only playing shows for a living. But I would say life is better now because I have a day job here that I really like, and it is with the government, but it's doing what I love, which is video production. So for me it's like video production, music production, any producing is my thing. I love taking something, whether it visual or audio in this case, and producing it into a package like you're doing your podcast. I love doing that. So I love making the podcast. I love making mixes. I love making videos. I love doing interviews. I love taking things and making it into something that is produced. So that was a long way of saying a whole bunch of things about me. But it's really interesting to hear that. And as I was listening to you, you've been doing this for quite some time now, like the DJing and the producing and stuff, and you've moved around to Europe and to Eastern Europe. I guess there's two things. Firstly, how much has moving around and particularly moving to Germany and Eastern Europe influenced your music? I think that the music itself was just influenced by the people that I met. And because they were more inspired there, I got more inspired. And that's why I continued producing music. Because well, I never stopped producing music. like this thing that I'm saying about feedback, you need to have a positive feedback as an artist to know that what you're doing is right because you can keep doing it forever. But when you get that positive feedback, you know you're going in the right direction. I wouldn't say that it would really change what I did, but there's something about this, the whole reason why you're putting it out in the world is because you want somebody else to understand the same thing you're feeling or that you understand. And so when you get that feedback, it really recharges you and lets you know that what you're doing is the right thing and you can keep going. I guess a lot of artists just give up. Like I guess Van Gogh had a really tough life, because they didn't really understand him, I guess, until it was too late. And I think that happens with a lot of artists and they keep going or whatever. But it is really nice in your lifetime not to die and to actually have this positive feedback. So original question was... Yeah, the question was moving to Europe and how that influenced you, but it sounds like it was actually the... community and the people that influenced your DJing and your producing? Yes, there's slight variations on styles, but going back to the very start, there's pockets all over the world of people just like me. And as long as I follow those pockets of people and I make sure that I'm going to them and experiencing that, even if it's just a couple of times a year at this point, it's beautiful. And that's all I need to keep going and to know what I'm doing is right. And I do keep making stuff and I collaborate with them. And yes, it's there are differences. different communities like different variations but jungle is jungle it's like a it's one of the most artistic forms of music because there's no rules whatsoever nobody will say this doesn't belong in jungle you could put anything in it like you put classical music in it and people go wow that's the best that's the best remix I ever heard you could you could put reggae you could put pop music and there's nobody's gonna judge you I don't I think jungle is like it's like punk rock or whatever you could do whatever you want and you're free to express yourself. And in fact, the more original and the more unique and strange it is, the more, the more, the more positive feedback you get, the more, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Uh, the more original and unique and strange your music is. People engage with it. People find, you know, something in it. You have an edge. Yeah. You're it's like, uh, yeah, that's just it. You people are taken off guard and they say, Whoa, that's yeah, more like rewind that song. I want to hear that again. And then. That's what I love about Jungle, you're not under any expectations whatsoever, especially my music. People knew from a young age that all of this remix has got to be DJK because only he would do something that ridiculous. But everybody would dance to it and so it keeps me going. Like that's, I believe in stuff that other people wouldn't touch and that's fine. And that's what makes me unique and every artist should find their way to communicate. with the medium that is consuming what you're making. Yeah. And it just listening to you there, it sounds, I mean, I was going to ask you about sort of how jungle is evolving, but really, I guess, from what I understand you saying, it's kind of a very fluid, very free flow type of, or form of music. So it's kind of evolving, kind of changing almost on the fly. I guess it's just not everything has been done with jungle yet. It's, it's kind of aged. It's what sort I'm looking for. when it is dated. Like it's a genre that peaked in 95 around then, but different versions of niche producers and artists have kept it alive in different unique ways and I feel that it's it hasn't all been done yet and it will never all be done. There's always a different way of making a jungle tune and there's also ways of copying all jungle tunes and All of those will always find their place in a jungle rave, like a jungle party. And especially the right ones, like the right festival crowd or the right little room of people who haven't seen each other in a decade. It'll make you feel like the best feeling you've ever had because you're connected with your community, with what feels like your family. You're displaying, you're playing the stuff that you put your heart and soul into and they... love it because they were looking for hearing that and they never heard it before. That's the greatest feeling. So it sounds like what they're really reacting to is an authenticity in the music. Yeah. So that's a good point, which you're saying that the DJ, if people don't really understand they say, okay, DJ, I remember back in the disco days there'd be somebody out there that plays the records for the dance floor or... this reggae sound system like culture that there was somebody who had to put the tunes on while the other people were emceeing. But the whole idea of a DJ is it's just an interaction with the crowd. You're feeling a mood, you're choosing what mood to play over the sound system and you can interact, you could see the people. So it's a different way of communicating. So you see all the people, how they're feeling, they're expressing to you, you're expressing them from the music and it's this loop. this continuous, like if you get it just right, if you're in this right flow state, which seems to happen often when you're DJ, because sometimes I don't even know how I know which knobs to press. If you've ever seen a mixer and you're not a DJ, there's a lot of stuff on there. But somehow, when you're in that flow state, you always just hit everything just right, and if it continues for the whole set, like an hour or whatever, and the people are feeling it, and you'll get into this sort of, almost like a trance where everyone... feels like everything is perfect and always right and it just keeps elevating and elevating as long as you know like unfortunately it doesn't happen often but when that happens that is so amazing because your euphoria of this living life like experiencing life where you forget everything around you except for the fact that this music is giving you that feeling those people are feeling it too and i think i elaborated enough on that but what i also want to say about dj is that It is a bit of a egoistic position, perspective, because you're the only one that has a control of what the whole crowd is doing. So you need to be the center of attention. So the type of people that become DJs are perhaps people that didn't get enough attention as a kid, I don't know. I definitely was unaccepted as a kid for music and anything I liked. So when I get this attention that I never got for the music that I wanted to make and that I missed in my life, then... That's why I keep doing it because I'm missing that love. I'm missing that validation. And so a lot of DJs, they have sort of this, I don't know if they all do, but a lot of them have this like everybody has to listen to me attitude because that's exactly what happens. And as long as you're good at doing that, you become a DJ and you become a good DJ. Yeah. And I hear what you're saying, but I have to say, you know, I know you well enough that I wouldn't... necessary, there's egotism and then there's egotism. And I think as you say, there's probably an ego in it, but there's also, I think, a sense of interaction, a sense of voice, a sense of, you know, so I don't find you necessarily an egotist in sense of look at me, look at me, look at me all the time. But it's almost like a passion in what you do and you want to share that. And you've talked about community, you talked about connections. And that in some ways, I think, you know, we all have egos, but I think that goes beyond just the ego. Yeah, thank you. It's nice that you would say that. I just want to be more, I'm self-critical and I just see, I'd like to see the full picture both sides and I could see, or maybe I'm just critical because like my childhood, like I said, that I was kind of put down a lot for, I waited so long to get the validation. So for me, it does feel a bit like self-centered, like it does feel quite self-centered. But yes, it's nice to think, like you said, that I'm sharing my passion with other people who would like to also. get that, hear that music. Yeah, that'd be a nice way. I would rather it that way, sure. Yeah. Well, I think it's sharing that, you know, you're being recognized for your authentic voice. And, you know, I think many artists, you know, growing up and stuff, and I've had it as a photographer where it's like, you're weird, just because I'll take pictures of things, I'll see things differently. And I kind of think, oh, you're just weird, you're a bit odd. And yet, you know, now I'm being recognized and people really like, because I'm also on Instagram and Facebook and, you know, just to share my pictures and It's a completely different interaction. So as I say, it's probably the validation you're being heard, you're being recognized. And yes, we all have egos and we all want to have the validation, but there's egos and then there's egos. Oh yeah, for sure in the DJ world, there's some big egos. I guess that's why I touched upon it. You can see some really big egos on a huge stage. It's like a mojo, like a huge energy that some people have that's a little too big to contain. It's like rock stars, it's the same thing. So for the last question. I guess what do you see in the future? I mean, you said that, you know, it sounds like the community is perhaps a bit smaller, but I'm also wondering, like a lot of art, a lot of popular things, I'm just thinking pop culture and music and styles and stuff, it can be quite cyclical. So I'm just wondering whether you think that might happen or, you know, it could just be the smaller events as you've mentioned. Yeah, there was a bit of a spike, I would say, in jungle music the last few years, but it's really this year it's really gone down. because the drum and bass, right after the pandemic, there's sort of a new sound that came out of drum and bass. During the pandemic, the music became, so I always talk about drum and bass and jungle as the same thing. Some people see them different, some people see the same. There's different like shades where jungle, well drum and bass almost sounds like jungle. So it's really, I wouldn't consider it two genres. In my head, it's the same, just a spectrum. And of course it started off the same, it sort of evolved and some people kept the old sound, some went to the new. So a few years ago, Before the pandemic, there was sort of more of this jungle stuff coming out. I was able to find a lot to do my music, my podcast, my mixes play live. But then as a pandemic hit drum and bass kind of became very dark and monotone. This foghorn sound that they talk about where it's very resonant and very one note, like, uh, what's the word? elongated is the wrong word, but sustained, a sustained one note with a lot of resonance and the mood, nobody wanted to hear uplifting reggae, reggae inspired. drum and bass or jungle anymore. Everybody wanted things to be in your face and people loved it. Like it became a new sound. And then after the pandemic that evolved into this new, not just monotone, but taking that same resonance, like abrasive sound and making it more danceable because now the clubs and the festivals and everybody's going out and they wanna hear music. So that became huge and it's really, really big right now. And it's a totally different sound than jungle. I would say it's the polar opposite if you're taking the same genre. opposite ends of the spectrum at this point. So that's having its time right now. Maybe people will get tired of the synthetic abrasive sound and they wanna go to the warm, organic, reggae-based drum samples of Jungle. At the same time, I'm not keeping up too much hope for that because I feel like music can evolve. We don't have to keep doing Jungle. In fact, let's have some more rock bands. That would be great too, because technology's made it too easy for people to make electronic music these days. So I think... I don't mind if it's time's gone because I've done it for so long and I've had so much great experiences that I don't personally need it anymore. But if it's there, it seems that I keep making it and every year I put out a bunch of extra songs that I didn't think I would. So maybe it'll come back, but I guess what I'm trying to say is my interest in it coming back is not. important anymore. Like I don't feel like it's as important as it once was. Especially in the 2005 when I was getting this depression and I was more in a crisis. I was really sad because I was, I thought it was my, it was my identity and I thought it's gone and it'll never come back and I'll never be happy again and I did and I was really lucky for those times up until now and if it doesn't come back I'm super happy with everything. If it does I'll enjoy it again. Great, thank you, Andrew. It's been really wonderful talking with you. Yeah, you too. I got a lot of thoughts out that we're in there and I hope other people might be interested in hearing some of those things. I'm sure they will, so thank you. Thank you too. I'm glad to be here. Thanks for listening to this episode with Andrew. I hope you enjoyed listening to it. More information about Andrew, including his social media handles, is in the podcast notes. I'd really appreciate it if you could... rate and review the podcast in the podcast apps. In the next episode, I speak with Duque, who's a London-based poet. Here's a clip of our conversation. Well, from a young age, I can remember writing poems. I've always sort of been good at English, always loved English at school, and I loved analyzing poems. And I found one of my old poems in one of my old school books, it was probably about 10. Wasn't very sophisticated at all, but. But yeah, I just liked writing poetry. And then I think as a teenager, I kind of used it to like process my teenage angst and erotions. I look forward to you joining me in the next episode.