S2, E13 - Aneesa Dawoojee

Aneesa Dawoojee is a sports, documentary and portrait photographer and art director based in London, England. One of her projects is photographing Muay Thai fighters. Aneesa is a qualified fellow of the British Institute of Professional Photography. The episode was recorded in May 2022. 

Aneesa's website and social media:
Website: www.aneesaphotography.co.uk
Insta: @aneesaimages
Twitter: @aneesaimages
Facebook: @aneesaimages
Youtube: Aneesa Photography
Pinterest: @aneesaimages

British Institute of Professional Photography:
Website: www.bipp.com

Podcast details:
Podcast email: artiststalespodcast@gmail.com
Website: www.artiststales.net
Instagram: @artists_tales_podcast
Threads: @artists_tales_podcast

Transcript

0:20

To Artist Tales, the podcast that features and celebrates artists from different walks of life. I'm your host Heather Martin and in this episode I'm speaking with Anisa Daewooji, a photographer and art director based in London, England. Welcome Anisa. Hi, nice to meet you, nice to see you. Yeah, good to meet you as well. So tell me a little bit more about yourself. So I am a South London... portrait sport photographer, but I also do documentary photography, so I kind of balance the two. So for me, I love the art of photography. I like the storytelling and narrative of photography. I relate it very much to works that you see in galleries with needing that little tiny bit of narrative to put the image in context and it has some kind of meaning I guess to the onlooker. So tell me a little bit more about the documentary photography and the portrait photography. So what sort of things do you focus on? Okay, so I do photograph sport work as, say, like commercial for clients and stuff like that. But with that, I do individual portraits, which go into more depth about each of the people I photograph. So with those type of portraits, and not just those portraits of the projects, my clients as well, I try and give a sense of... who they are, what they are, where their journey is, and where it's going. So for some people, they come to me and they want to mark a point in their life that means something or something that they've gone through and they've come out the other end of. With my sport work, there was a set of Muay Thai fighters, and I love Muay Thai, it's my favorite sport, and I feel blessed to be able to photograph it as a profession and... also as my project, but I was really able to connect, I guess, with the subjects. I think for a portrait to come alive, there has to be a little bit of connection. I'm not saying like you really have to get to know these people inside and out, but you need to know, have an understanding of what the world is like and what the sport is like and what, whether A to B may, I don't know, like I don't know how to describe it, but because I've seen so many people in that fight world and what they experience. documenting it in an image feels natural to me. It feels like something they deserve as well because it is so hard what they put themselves through and the life challenges as well as the sport itself is difficult. So yeah, I just love it. I throw myself in and I hope I do it justice because I really do love photographing that side of things. What is my tie? I've never heard of it before. So it's a martial art and It's a bit like kickboxing, but you can use your knees and elbows and it involves the whole body. It's a very dangerous sport. They refer it to like, we call it a blood sport. So sometimes you'll see a lot of blood in the arena if someone gets hurt. It's dangerous. It's like, so it's a bit like street fighting. I did it when I was younger because it was a karate was, when I was doing karate, it was not so much, it was contact, but not really contact. Whereas this is a sport that really teaches you how to defend yourself and look after yourself, but not just that, it has a lot of respect and honour and tradition. So if you say you have someone who struggles with their anger or have problems that they're not coping so well with, it's a phenomenal outlet, but it's also a way of controlling that because the trainers really do reign you in and teach you that level of discipline. I just think it, yeah, it's quite unique and because it dates from centuries ago and... It's just, it's a beautiful sport. I know it's violent, but it is a beautiful sport. And do you go to matches or do you go to practices? I don't know if I'm saying the right sort of language around it because I don't know it, but... Yeah, so when they're training at the gym, I photograph that as well. I photograph ringside. So it's like from almost amateur to fight camp to ringside and then the portraits as well. So like pretty much all areas. So you do get a real insight of... the whole journey. And for some of those fighters I've followed for several years, so you get more than an insight. And I guess, because I study their body, then how they move, you pick up little things, you see little details that you don't always necessarily see. So it's nice to report that back to the world. I think a lot of fighters are stereotyped. If you think about boxers, this is very different to boxing. And many boxers are stereotyped to be a certain way. And then you might get some fighters that are like, coming from head to toe in tattoos, but their true self is nothing like the image that they're putting out to the world. So again, it really does teach you about humanity and teach you about what ordinary people are like. It's educational for me, and every time I shoot, it's great. And it sounds like there's a bit of an overlap with the portrait photography you do and the sports photography. So do they go hand in hand, or is it a bit of an overlap and you do kind of portraits of other things as well? I do many portraits of other things. So yeah, like I do like fight poses as well, but yeah, the set of portraits I created for my main piece of project, which will be exhibited later in the year, that is very carefully created. It's really, really carefully curated. I've really thought about it. The theme is constant throughout, but I do many other portraits as well. So again, I think I have a set style. I think you could tell my work if you saw it. But yeah, I think for me, I just want to capture a real and raw essence of anyone who comes and sits in front of me. I got told once that you should pose females in a certain way and they should look more feminine. Well, I'm not that kind of girl, so I wouldn't like it if someone like that. So I kind of decided to create images that were more representative of the type of women I shoot. I try not to edit at all, if possible. So they are just... raw images converted to black and white or remaining in colour and I keep it as real as I can because then it's a better representation of the subject. So in many ways if I'm hearing you right you're kind of challenging stereotypes? Yeah, yeah I feel so. It wasn't ever intentional. I've got quite a sensitive nature to the world and I don't like seeing things that are wrong or unjust or anything like that so if I feel that someone... comes to me and they've had those experiences, I wanna show them in their true self and I want them to be seen and valued for the good that they represent and not the things that people may stereotype them for. So I really, yeah, maybe that is very much my thing is that I want people to have that truth about them coming through in the image, that matters to me. And I guess that's why the relationship that I build with my clients and subjects is quite key as well. So yeah, I was going to say you said truth, but I was thinking as you're talking, you know, what you're trying to get at is the authentic person? Yes, it's the authentic person, the honesty. Again, sometimes I might help pose them, like, because they, everyone is uncomfortable and a bit awkward in front of the camera. So I always... say that though, the first, how I shoot at the beginning is never how it looks at the end. So like, it's usually the frames at the very end are the ones I'm going to run with. But yeah, like I'm looking for something authentic, something that we can, you can relate to, I can relate to, we can all relate to. That's the bit that I'm looking for. And how did you get into photography and particularly doing the sport and the portrait photography? That's like my journey to... Photography was a bit all over the place. So as a little girl, I wanted to be an artist and I really thought I could be an artist, but then everyone was saying, you're not gonna earn any money, so you can't do that. And so I went down academia, but like I still compromised. I did history and politics and that history and politics, I thought I wasted my degree and it wasn't any use to anyone. But actually what's happened is with the social documentary work, it fully feeds into. all of those things that I'm now creating. So it's kind of been just sat there on the back burner. Now I love reading and doing all these extra things because of what I studied many years ago. But I think getting into photography was when I worked at the homeless charity. So I worked there for about 13 years and the young people were not represented. in a way that I felt was like authentic or honest. And it was very like put them in a corner looking sad and impoverished, but that's not true for someone who's been kicked out of their home and is just trying to find some normality. What we should do is show what the future could look like for them and show their happier self and try and fundraise for that. And so we changed all the photography in it and I said, I'll do it for free. And that was like a bit of a turning point for me. feedback was phenomenal and the funders liked it and it was a different take on homelessness and I thought, okay, I like that that's been received so well. So I decided doing like evening courses and I went back to college learning Photoshop, went to like, you know, there's photography clubs and you go and practice with things with a bunch of strangers. So I was going to do that and yeah, like I just kept learning my skills in every free hour that I had. until I got good enough to do a transition to being coming a full-time photographer. That took many years and I've no regrets. You said that you transitioned to be a full-time photographer. How was that transition for you? Hard. So it was really, really difficult. I was scared. I thought everyone would laugh at me. People did laugh at me. I could count like many, many times people kept saying it was a hobby. So they wouldn't call it a job. And that... would really, really upset me and I was just like, why are you saying that? Because it was knocking my self esteem an awful lot. But I'm quite robust. I would keep trying to prove a point that photography is a profession. And so then I joined institutes and started getting my qualifications. And then through that, you meet a network of other photographers who then show you pathways of other things that you can achieve. So I think that that's what I was trying to do. I wanna be successful as well as professional. And so everything I learned from the Homeless Charity, pulled it into my now business and I run what I hope is a very professional service. previous in my career have served me well. Like sometimes it's just good to do different career paths because then you know when you do this as your final choice it's the right one. And I was going to ask you about that you know because there's no one correct way of getting through life and even I do find that you know my career has you know even my whether it's full-time employment or even my photography career gets influenced by a lot of other things. Yeah. And I know what you mean about sort of people, oh, that's just a hobby, because I get that quite a lot as well. I'm not seen as a serious photographer, quote unquote, because I don't generally charge for it. And it's like, well, I'm just as good as anybody else. Yeah. So at that point, you should put price on it. Yes. So they don't say that. And when you're charging a lot of money for that, they will stop saying that. So I think that's when you get to a point where, it's a bit of a sweet spot where you can be quite like, okay, I'm absolutely a professional photographer, because if I'm... able to charge my client X, Y and Z and offer them the best possible service as good as any studio in London then you know that it's a real job. It's not a pretend job, we didn't make it up. We're freelancers as most freelancers are. I think for us we need to stand our ground and speak with that conviction that this is what my value is, this is how much work it is involved. But again, for me it isn't always the price because I'm not the only one who yeah, I have my professional side of it. I can really look past all those things that were said in the past because I still do jobs that are free, but for the right type of person. And that's coming from a place of me wanting to do it and with reason. So like, I was, in all honesty, I was never driven by the money. That wasn't the point. I wanted to be seen as a professional and also as an artist. So again, like for ages, I couldn't ever use that word artist. It wasn't until I got to a stage of having the work. submitted for places where it's considered more art or things like that until I got to that stage could I actually use that word so even that I had to go through a whole psychological process of what am I at that stage yet can I be that or am I still a photographer like it's fine to be both but I think for me because I loved art so much and I mirrored so much of what I remembered and think about in galleries through my work it mattered a little bit to me. I'm not saying it's the right thing, but it did matter to me a little bit. Well, as you're talking, I'm also thinking about the value of art and artists, regardless of whether you do it professionally or not. I guess part of me sometimes feels that people, some people, not everybody, but some people kind of, unless you're making money from it, then you're not a true photographer, a true artist. And it's like, well, or if you're not getting into these big competitions and stuff, it's like, well, actually, it's not that I... I can't do that, but it's, I don't know if it's a kind of a snobbery or kind of labels we put on things or stereotypes, but there's value in whatever we, you know, whatever art we produce. And I do sometimes wonder there's, you know, for lack of a better word, a snobbery, unless it's hung in a gallery, it's not art? Yeah, I think so. I think until I saw my work hanging in the gallery, did I change it on my actual, my email signature, and I put artists? That was the day I did it, in all honesty. I don't know, maybe that's what we're taught and made to believe, but you're right, my work was that all along, but I didn't feel it was worthy enough to publicly say it. So yeah, there's stuff there that we need to unpack. But that's for you, getting me someone else to sit here and do catching with about why I took almost every artist. But yeah, I think it's all part of the growth, right? It's part of the growth, it's part of the journey. It's why we are artists. You're not meant to be like anybody else. you're meant to be a creative, you're meant to be different. I don't desire to be like anyone else and I hope they don't wanna be like me because that would just be awful and boring and then like quite, yeah, like I just don't see the point. So even on like who I follow, I don't follow many photographers. I do love, like I will cite loads of artists, but I'll enjoy good photography and I'll remember certain people and I'll go back and think about what they try to do or achieve through their work. And then I'll just. box that in my brain and when I'm doing my own projects, there might be little snippets of everything that I'm putting together, but I think to try and mirror yourself as another artist, to be an artist, that just doesn't work. And that's why it's taken me so long to feel confident enough to call myself that. And to find your voice. I think for me, it's taken me a while to find my voice and that authentic voice as well. And I think, you know, to go back to what you're saying, you know, you want to, like in your portraits, for instance, want to give an authentic. but it's also that interaction between you and the person or people you're doing the portrait of. Yeah, I mean that interaction between myself and the sitter is huge. That's the majority of the work. To downplay that would just be wrong. My relationship with that person is very important, and therefore that's why I can't be looking or thinking about what someone else is producing, because it's not authentic to my relationship. That's where I'm able to create what I am. They're working with me. I'm not over directing. They're actually bringing an awful lot to me rather than me bringing it to them. And that's what I think is enjoyable. I love shoot days. I hate admin days, but I love shoot days because there's no part of it I don't enjoy. Not one part of it. Every second is enjoyable for me and I'm learning the whole time. Which leads on, I think, nicely to my next question around who or what influences you. So I wrote like a little mini thesis from one of my fellowships that like Frida Kahlo will probably always be one of my favourite artists on the planet. I like women like that. I like the strength in her portraits. I like the fact that she went through so much. And I think some artists, the artists with the most amount of pain that you feel it in their work or it's part of the narrative are the ones that I love. the most. I'm not saying I'm addicted to pain but I like that. I don't know, maybe it resonates with me in some way on an evil level but she will always be my go-to person that I will cite first. August Sander, I always say, like it was actually one of my mentors who brought him to me and said your work will have reminiscent things of this and when I put all the images together and he's... telling me how and when and he's a lecturer so he can see these things that I couldn't see and when he brought it to me about what I was doing I was like oh that was interesting and again like I don't know that there are so many I mean there's thousands and thousands of photographers artists of course we're gonna be have like little elements of each other so when someone brings someone to me I'm like that's really interesting I want to see more their work now. Albert Watson in terms of commercial work, I love some of his work that one of two back. I even like sent that book to a couple of people just because I think they should see that like it and his range of skin tones of what he's photographed. I think that's phenomenal because I photograph all skin tones and that is one of the hardest things to get right properly in camera without it being over manipulated. So like if I see people like that photographing what they do, I just think wow, that's impressive. That is impressive. Yeah, like more artists, like, but again, like I couldn't tell you who's the biggest influence, they're probably subconsciously all in there having their impacts, but I have lots of art books, like Dali was my favourite as a child. So that book's just there on my table as we're speaking and I still love looking at that. And maybe with that as the formation, again, they're not overly feminine things, but the... form is, I like the form and how he sculpts everything and the colour, the vibrancies, I like all of that. So there's things I could take from everybody and think, yeah, that's usable, that's interesting. And then some of his work as well, it's very not so abstract. And they're things that, again, I get inspiration from. I just, I'll read it, if you put an artwork in front of me, I'll read it and see what is usable. So yeah, I wouldn't like to say that one person. is my favourite or has inspired me the most because I don't think I have that. As you're talking I kind of feel the same. You know I think often when I go to art galleries and things, seeing a bit of that, seeing a bit of this, and there might be times where you see somebody who's had a struggle or you know if you can maybe identify, oh you know that person struggled or you know or if somebody's looked at your pictures, I've had a friend who looked at my pictures and will pick out things that you don't see, you know. Which, yeah, I wasn't, I guess I wasn't thinking one or two people is kind of just generally what influences you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, like I say, like, if I had to pick one person and I was forced to, I'd pick Frida Kahlo. Just as everything she stood for, like what she represents would mirror more of me than anybody else. That's fine. And you don't have to pick one person, but I think, yeah, she's quite iconic in some ways. Yeah. Yeah, like she's, she, there's so much to us, so many layers, there's so many things I admire from that one, one figure or one person. So like for me, it's about, you know, what is it that I connect to? Being able to think of it, there's many reasons why I would connect to her paintings and why I like them so much. And what motivates you? So when, when you were starting to get into photography, what drew you to the sports and portrait photography in particular? I don't know, I... I have an interest in humanity, I have an interest in conflicts. So again, when I did my history and politics degree, I had an interest in conflicts in particular. I thought I did that as like throughout my GCSE and A levels, but I used to read conflict poetry, I only watched war films. I had quite maybe a bit of an obsession with conflict and I did a post-grad in conflict mediation studies when I was at the homeless charity. So there's a part of me that wants to see peace and can't understand why people can't get to peace. So yeah, like I think it definitely stems from that. The human face gives away so much, body gives away so much, but the fight itself represents so much as well. Like it's a metaphor as well as the physical. I don't know why. I, when I was a child, I watched boxing late at night and I, I mean, it was quite brutal back then. And But I did enjoy it and I remember the childhood memories of watching boxing and like Muhammad Ali is one of the people I admire most in life, his bravery to stand up and speak about things. He wasn't so much a boxer as he was an advocate, an activist and someone who fought for things that were right. So yeah, I think it's a combination of all of that. I love, I love movement. Yeah, so I love dance and I love fighting. don't really work together, but they do as well. Well, I would say some of the movements in boxing, there's a dance element to it, isn't there? Yeah, in Muay Thai there is, because it's very graceful in how the body moves as well. And like some martial arts are like a dance, like the Brazilian ones and stuff like that. So yeah, maybe it's the movement, it challenges me to use a different set of speeds. Yes, there's a combination, I would say, probably. And just thinking, you know, going back to what you're saying about form and... I'm just wondering with the martial arts and the movement and boxing and stuff, whether it's kind of that... Italian? Yeah. Yeah, quite potentially you could, yeah, maybe that has something to do with it. Because also with photography and art, you think about the formation, yes, certain things don't look right in a position. So again, like if I pose the fight image, well, I'm going to get the one that looks the best in formation with both bodies working together to make the best... impact or non-impact shot. So yeah, like I'm looking at fight pictures very differently. I'm probably not looking at them in a conventional way. I'm not looking at it to get the best hit in the face. I am getting those shots as well, but that's not my priority. I'm looking for something else in that ring. Maybe that's it. Every time there's a challenge, every time it's different, different body shapes, different people, different lighting. So yeah, like it's, it's humanity though. It all boils down to humanity, human behaviour. I think I have a complete fascination with that and conflict. and perhaps struggle as well, maybe? Well, yeah, struggle's definitely in there. That's been noticed by quite a lot of people. They all see that in my work, is that the common theme is struggle. I know what struggle looks like, so it's important that if you feel it, that you can identify it in my images, I hope, and then also feel like you're not alone. If you look at those pictures and you don't feel alone because you know everyone else is going through a struggle, you're going to not feel so bad, right? I don't mean to do it in a morbid way, but sometimes it may come across that way, but it's not. It's to hopefully make you feel better. Humanity and struggling, I think, go hand in hand in many ways. So probably what you're capturing is that human struggle. seeing your work I think it does capture that personally. Yeah I hope so. Yeah maybe it's my way of speaking as well. I don't over talk myself. I did write again like in my work because there's definitely a piece of me in that work, in all of the work. So whether it's a new piece or an old piece, nearly everyone who sits in front of me I identify with in some way shape or form and so every piece I produce carries a little bit of me in it because like I am empathizing and feeling things that they're like, I feel, I feel, um, so like I don't, the narratives will be released at some point, but I want that to be on the right platform at the right time and everything like that. So, but when people talk to me and share things with me, it's, uh, I feel hopeful about so many things. And that's why I enjoy my shoots so much because it means that no struggle has gone in vain. Like, they just haven't and like that's why I don't over post on Instagram, I don't over share on my websites or anything like that. I hold on to the images until I can do something wise with them because otherwise just sharing them on Instagram they get lost in a feed they don't mean anything I don't want that for my pictures that's just not what I'm after. No it sounds like you're much more thoughtful like images are much more thoughtful than just I'm just taking a quick snap. Oh God yeah, like I think it would horrify some photographers, my processes, and that's okay, because I'm not them. And my time is my time and how I choose to work is how I choose to work. So yeah, I am thoughtful, a plan. I think often I don't need to and it's very much off the cuff, but yeah, I am thoughtful. Yeah, you're right. And talking about challenges, what sort of challenges have you faced becoming the photographer you are today? There have been a lot. I have felt... the challenges I have felt out of place. Like I use the word I don't fit in sometimes because I think I am not, I don't know, sometimes I worry about, like I've said this a few times at different tours, I worry about the way I speak and the way I come across and I worry about so many things because when I look at the art world, it seems quite affluent and I'm not that person. And so like I then, I worry about things I shouldn't worry about, put it that way. I need to just. all of that and just really just plug away and pretend that there is nothing there watching me but I'm sensitive to comments, I'm sensitive to how people engage with me and all those things but I think in any work industry, in any institution, in any place you go there's going to be that so it is about for me this whole journey is teaching me how to be a stronger person and how to manage all different character types, that's what it is. And I think so my struggles are many, but so long as I can do good with them, that's the end result. And I hope I can do that. Yeah, I know what you mean. There's often a lot of assumptions made based on sort of accent, the way you speak, kind of even how you look and that sort of thing. And, you know, is that tension between that and as we're talking about before, the authenticness, the kind of the truth and stuff. And, you know, I think it can be a struggle to keep tapping into the truth and authenticness. Yeah. I think so. It's finding your strength and finding yourself and all those things and all the things that I think all artists must go through, some worse than others, because it is about, I do think there are cultures in the art world. I do think that. And so like if you're fortunate enough to know it well enough, you may fly a bit better, but if you feel like you're a bit out of place, then you may stop yourself from flying a bit better. So there are definitely cultures. Sometimes I look at certain, it might be a competition or something, and you'll see a certain style or set of images that seem to always get through every year, and there are themes or tones or types of people that clearly, whoever's judging, are looking for, and that then is repeated year in, year out, and then you can almost, and I know this works, because I actually ended up paying up to one of those, and I was successful after many years of not being, or like many attempts of not being successful, I ended up being successful. you can preempt what someone's looking for because they have a, it's like a set culture within their group. So one of the people I know, I really like him, he calls certain types of groups like monocultures. And I like that word because we could easily fall into that monoculture. I am a bit resistant to things like that. Like that's the whole thing about like what I was saying to you earlier about being an artist, is you find who you are and what is unique to you and what makes you who you are. I don't want to be like everybody else. And that may work for you, it may not work for you. That's a bit of a big learning curve for me. Yeah, what you have said has really resonated with me because I remember putting some images into an exhibition a number of years ago, you know, I was dropping my images off somewhere and chatting with the guy who was taking the images and we were talking about the judging and judges and... you know, his comment was you play to the judges, you find out about the judges and what they like and play to them. And I just found, yeah, but that's not necessarily what I want to do. And it seemed really unauthentic. Oh, absolutely. And rest assured you won't get anywhere by being authentic. So this is why I made my work a little bit more palatable when it was needed. And then when it wasn't needed, I could be my true self. And then so long as you... because it's like qualifications, so you go and you do your degree in art, history of art, whatever it might be, you still have to fit the criteria of what the university or establishment are looking for and so you're not being your authentic self, even in your personal projects you may not fully be your authentic self because you're working to a essay title that you might not want to work to or a research subject that you don't... really think is as important as the many other sub research things. Do you know what I mean? Like there are times where you have to compromise, but then later you can be completely yourself. So I think I'm now trying to be completely myself. It's taken a long time, but I'm trying to do that and be that. And if they like it, they like it. And if they don't, then it's not for me. And you know, hopefully it'll speak to somebody. Yeah, I think it will. To be honest, my main panel of work, I was very conscious of the hands because the hands need to look a certain way in portraiture if it's above the waist or whatever. But since then, since the main body of work, I've been so reckless with what the hands are doing. I'm not as bothered at all. I want them doing things they shouldn't be doing or covering parts of the face and all of those things because I've heard people say... true portrait is looking straight at you and like through the eyes and all that. Well, it wasn't the head of Christ that one, that Rembrandt one, is not looking straight to you, is it? It's looking to the side, looking away and there are other images where the hands are touching the face and all of that. So I'm in absolute disagreement with that. But if that's the rules, that's the rules. But I don't like those rules. It's knowing how to break, somebody had said to me, it's knowing how to break the rules. Yeah. It's knowing the rules and knowing how to break them. Sustling, quietly. Or not so subtly. But if you look at a lot of the really big artists, what do they do? They kind of break the rules subtly and maybe not so subtly. I mean, at some point I will be very unsubtle with how I break them, but at the moment I'm still breaking subtly because that works for me. Whatever works for you. So what's next? Well, I have an exhibition. from the 15th of September, and that will run for three months in Streatham in South London, and that will be at the Space Project, and that has been funded by the Arts Council. So that's massive to me, because it meant I could finish my project and do it justice, do workshops, things that I love doing and can enjoy doing, but. with like support and backing and a team working with me. So that's like something amazing for the years ahead. Next year, it looks like I might be having a second exhibition, but I don't know the ins and outs of that one yet, but I will post on those as and when it happens. And then the next thing I'm trying to do is just like, yeah, like sound out if I can find a publisher. Like I want... to have all the images together in one place where people can enjoy it as the narratives that I spoke about where I don't really share them at the moment. Like I said, I just want them to be somewhere where the people who read them aren't just gonna read them and think meh and then move on. Like I want them to read them and be engaged with what it is and what it stands for. So that's why I still like I post little bits and pieces and little snippets, but yeah, I'm kind of still holding out hopefully and. Yeah, I'll work on that. I'll do my best. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. But if it can, that's the end goal at the moment. There's something different about interacting with a book and sort of reading the descriptions than, you know, I'm just thinking I'm not against social media, but it's the immediacy and you swipe, you swipe, you go to the next. There's something about a book that you can reflect on and read and go back. that is much harder on social media. Yeah, 100%. So I've started listening to books on audiobooks. It only takes me a while to digest words when I'm physically reading them. But I've still bought the book because I can still go back to the relevant sections and highlight little bits or turn the pages or something quite special about a book. And with photo books, I look at my photo books. I love them. I have a friend that produced his on Nightscapes and I love that book. And there were so many books. that I will keep and think, that's just lovely. And I will keep looking at those photographs. And if there's narrative, you will read those narratives. And then that person who gave you that narrative knows that it's in that right hands. And the person who is reading it or wanting to learn about you is doing so from a good place. And so yeah, that whole swiping thing, yeah, I don't want it to be remembered for three seconds in someone's very rushed day-to-day world. I want them to sit down on a. holiday or on a Sunday afternoon and enjoy it or maybe go to the exhibition and then if I get the book at some point then they would have experienced it. And like I say, if I get the book, if I do something like that, I don't want it to be a me thing. The whole point is about everybody together. So then it takes the onus or the spotlight off me, which is not really what I'm after. I just really, really believe that this, the project that I'm working on is worth something and will mean something to so many. Oh, definitely. I think so. I hope so. Well, thank you. It's been really good speaking with you. It's been so interesting to hear about your journey and good luck with, you know, your future exhibitions and fingers crossed about the book. Thank you. Thank you, Anita. Toes as well. Thank you so much, Heather. Thanks for listening to this episode with Anisa, which was the last episode of the second series. More information about Anisa, as well as the podcast, can be found in the podcast notes. If you're able to, please rate and review the podcast in the podcast apps. I hope you enjoyed the second series of Artist Tales, and hope you'll join me in the third series when it arrives.